Welcome And Why Nick Stands Out

SPEAKER_01 1:25

All right. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the show. This is the Next Level Human Podcast. And I am very excited for this call because I'm going to just set this up. Have you ever met? Have you guys ever met someone that you meet someone and you just go, Oh my gosh, this is my human. This person is brilliant. I need to just soak up everything they have. Well, my guest today is that kind of person for me. And I met her through my PhD program. We're both working on a PhD program in integral and transpersonal psychology together. And it's interesting because we're starting together. And as soon as she opened her mouth in our first class, I was like, she's brilliant. I need to talk to her. I need to learn everything that I can from this human. And she also turned out to be just um a beautiful human being that I'm introducing to all my friends. And so, Nick Pigeon, welcome to the show and thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

I'm so excited to be here. And I just love how hard we've just laughed behind the scenes. That's like the perfect frame for this episode.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

I know. Let me share this with everybody. So Nick and I are getting ready to come on live with all of you. And I tell her right before we hit record, I go, I go, all right, may the force be with you. And she goes in also with you. And I start rolling because I'm like, you're Catholic, aren't you? And she's like, yeah. So raised Catholic anyway. So I was raised Catholic too. And of course, a Catholic is going to answer that right with that phrase. So we were rolling before we came on.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

So I love that you knew what I meant. I went to a church school for high school. So may the force also be with you.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Yeah, exactly. I love that so much. Let me set them up for this, Nick, to kind of let them know why I think you're so brilliant, why I want you on the show, and why I think everyone needs a little piece of you. Um, the the the podcast is called Next Level Human. And from my perspective, um, we have, you know, like Nick is obviously you have an amazing uh education, you know, master's in uh positive psychology, you've been kind of all over the place. You're a best-selling author, you've done TEDx talks, like you've kind of been everywhere and done everything. Now you're working on your PhD. Um, you're uh a leader in, you know, executive coaching and trained coaches all over the world, and you're getting ready to go on uh the Nick Pigeon tour soon with like 11 events all over the world. And so you're doing exciting stuff. But honestly, the thing that I thought was the most amazing about you, and this is the next level human piece, is that you've been through some shit in your life. You've been through some really hard stuff. And um most people, you would think, when they go through really hard things, you know, you see two kinds of people, right? Some people, it destroys them, and and for good reason. You know, we can all just kind of be like, life is hard, life can be a real struggle. And then there's other people who use that in some way to, I don't know, uh give and be better and grow and um be purposeful and just show up uh as their fully expressed self. And to me, that is the energy that you give off, and that's the hope of what I feel like a next level human is. And so I told you before we came on, I have one agenda that I want to talk about, so I do want to get to that, but I want to talk about this part first because I just think it talks about the next level human piece. I would like to know how I know this is a big question. You're gonna be like, Jade, oh my God, that's a big question, but how did you pull that off? Like, how can you have gone through the stuff that you have gone through? Um, and you can talk about that as deep as you want to or not, and come out of it on the other side, being, you know, um this very growth-oriented, giving, loving human being who doesn't seem to be um carrying the grief the way we might expect you to.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Well, thank you for such an amazing introduction. And we're gonna just solve my PhD in this session right now, because this is the stuff that I love, love, love. I'm honestly fascinated by how some people can go through challenge and turn it into extraordinary contribution, and there's a lot within our life experience to unpack. So the reason actually, or one of the reasons I came to do the PhD at this time is because I just got so fascinated by what it is that commonly stops people and what it truly takes to become unstoppable. And I had my own experiences time and time and time again. And I never wish hard challenges on anybody. And when I look at what it is that has made me the person that I am, it is because I've gone through so many difficult times and a wide variety of things from having a childhood suicide attempt when I was 11 to then losing 12 of my close friends before they turned 30, three of who died by suicide. And that is just not normal. Like I remember I was like, why is everybody dying around me? And it was, it we were young. We're young, young adults. It's it was really strange. And all of them were freak accidents or suicides, and none of them were illness. So that felt like a strange reality to be navigating. I've been through sexual assault and recovering from PTSD from that business traumas that I think people don't talk enough about that go on behind the scenes, that are incredibly traumatic. And that's actually the focus of the PhD that I'm studying, because I really understand just how difficult it is to show

Trauma History And The Unstoppable Question

SPEAKER_00 7:35

up on the front of your business and have this brand and personal brand where you're out there in the world and you've got this stuff that's going on behind the scenes. And I think this is true for us, whether you have a business or you have a job or you're a parent, there's a certain degree of the way that we've structured our lives and the way that society has developed, it commands us to just get on with things. It's like if you're gonna go and teach on a Zoom call and I've got 20 students waiting there, I'm not gonna cancel that Zoom call. I'm gonna put my game face on, I'm gonna get it done, and I'm gonna do it really fucking well as well. So I think that there's a separation that occurs when you are a person that's committed to doing the things that you said you're gonna do, and you want to get that done. And then also what happens when physically, mentally, and emotionally, on some of the days you also just can't do that. So I think that there's a lot wrapped up in values when it comes down to it, because one of my core values is growth, another one is connection, another one is generosity. So I look at how I can show up as all of those things, no matter what is going on in my life and in my business. And I think where I have found it really challenging is like, let's say going through, like I went through a bunch of financial stuff. I had a blackmail that happened, I had someone try and extort me, I had a bunch of fraud things that went on that made it very, very difficult for me to know who to trust. And that also included myself at the time. Because I was like, why did I make these decisions in this way? And you also have to look at taking responsibility rather than just feeling like life is being done to you. So I think that the introspective work can only truly give you the breakthrough when you're willing to be radically honest. And sometimes that doesn't feel good at the time. It feels like a tough pill to swallow to be like, right, I've got to look at my part in this and I've got to keep on moving forwards, even though I'm tired, exhausted, confused, scared, overwhelmed. I've just got to keep on going. And some days that looks like just getting through the next hour. Never mind going to build the multi-million dollar business.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Yeah, let's uh let I heard a couple things in that that I really want to unpack. I heard values and I wanna I want to talk a little bit about that, but I heard radical ownership. And so I want to talk about those two, but before I get to those two, right? I want to talk about like, okay, when you're going through this stuff, are you just switching gears out of the deep emotional stuff? Like, like you're talking about this idea of jumping on a Zoom call where you've got to show up for people. Are you literally just saying, I'm putting aside my emotional, um, emotionally torn up self, and I'm stepping into a different identity? And are is that because some people might call that dissociation, right? Like I'm just dissociating so that I can do my work. And then I'm like, and you don't seem, I don't see how you get to these values and this ownership and this work by dissociating. So the first thing I'm noticing is I'm like, how do you do that and then get back to the inner work, right? Because in some way, you do have to kind of be like, I'm putting this wounded me aside, and I'm stepping into, you know, let's I I don't know, let's call it wounded Nick and superhuman Nick, right? Like I'm gonna just like I'm I'm stepping out of wounded Nick for now and jumping into superhuman Nick. And it's interesting because the way you said that is like, I don't think I just want to know, I don't know that I could do that given, you know, um what some of the things you went through. So it I just want to talk about that first. And maybe you don't have an answer for that, but I'm just curious. Do you have like I know we there's in the research, you know, people talk about the Batman effect, some people call it the alter ego effect. And, you know, so there is some of that stuff, but I'm wondering, what is it that you are doing there? Is it just simply I've got to, is that the ownership piece or is this something else?

SPEAKER_00 11:57

I think it's both. I think it's the ownership. I also do think there's a degree of dissociation, and I think that it's important to name it because when we're looking at getting through tough days and what people commonly perceive resilience to be, it is the ability to bounce back. It's the ability to dig into that grittiness and just keep on going. And that is it's healthy up until a point, and it can help us to keep moving forwards, but it also can be maladaptive when we're not revisiting or we're not connecting with the emotion and the stuff that's actually underneath there. So I'll I'll give a couple of examples. So one really specific example that I remember is we had a one of our teams, and she actually managed to save a life. So one of the books and one of the areas that I'm fascinated with is suicide prevention, because we know that suicide is the most preventable cause of death, and there's things that we can do right now to strengthen our internal and psychological resources so that we don't get there, or if we ever do, we know how to deal with it. So it's always been a big conversation in my spaces and through my programs and positive psychology. And there was a member of the team who reached out to me and she said, Nick, I saw someone that was on a bridge and they were trying to take their own life today. And I managed to physically, she's a tiny little

Dissociation Versus Healthy Resilience

SPEAKER_00 13:30

woman, managed to physically grab him and literally pull him back. And she was then dealing with her own thoughts and feelings because she'd had this crisis intervention and what it brought up in her. And I was having this conversation with her, and then I was talking with my um team, and then I had to go on a call to teach. So I went on the call to teach, and it's almost like right, okay, I'm gonna switch on. So I'm gonna just pause on this conversation over here. I'm gonna get focused, I'm gonna do the thing that's important, which is contribution, impact, looking after our students, making sure that they are good with the delivery of our programs. And we had a breakout room in the middle of it. And I remember going into the breakout room, putting the students into theirs. And I had two master coaches and my um executive assistant in the breakout room, and I told them the story of what had been happening, and I just like broke into floods of tears from a contribution and a connection and a mission perspective, but also honoring the fear that I felt around like sometimes I get this feeling still of like, is it is it happening again? Like, we've lost so many people, like I don't want it to happen again. So I'm very fortunate because I do have spaces and I have people and I have relationships that have been set up and structured in ways that they know me well enough now to say, you've got a lot on your plate, you're not okay. Like, and they give me the space for that. So it felt like I had both in that experience. And then I also make a point to go back and say, I also know when I'm repressing emotion, I also also know myself well enough now to know when there's material there. And for me, it's really, really easy to, and in psychology, they call it sublimation. It's really easy for me to channel energy into work or channel energy into working out and going to the gym. And that also is productive and unproductive. So, what I'm learning through the research into resiliency is that it very much is both, it can be very complex, where it might serve a purpose and be positive for a phase of time. And then also it can kind of come back and bite you in the ass. And it can be this thing that perhaps you have dissociated to the point of not wanting to remember or deal with the thing that you need to deal with because it feels too painful, or it feels like it's just it's not your number one priority at the time. So I also create space for myself in other pockets of the day, where let's say, for example, I might finish work at five or six or 9 p.m. or whenever it is, and I music is always a great gateway for me to access emotion. So I'll play some of my favorite like kundalini mantras, or I'll play something that connects me in with my heart and really drops me into my body instead of being in this logic of I'm just gonna think about strategically what I need to get done. So by being in that space of like the frequency of music, the energy of my heart, it helps me to then feel and connect in with the material that's actually there.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

Yeah. I love this answer. So let me tell you what I'm hearing. And I don't think most people really understand it. So it's like, okay, yes, Jade, I can switch into this other thing. And it is, it can be dissociation for a time, but you tend to come back and are very, it seems to me like you're very intentional about I need to come back and get this, move this energy in some way, shape, or form. And to me, that sounds very, very different than what I think most people might do. Like I imagine most people might do something, and certainly I would point at myself like this, especially my more recent self, not current jade, although he's still working on it, but my past jade would be like, I'm not feeling this at all. I don't have time, space, and I'm not gonna get flooded by my emotion, and then it does something in me where later it comes out in some way, shape, or form. And I never learned how to do that. I think as men, you know, we you know, gross generalization, this is, you know, part and parcel to what men typically do. But I love this idea that you're essentially saying, okay, I do go back and intentionally process or allow this energy to move through me in some way. And I don't know, I mean, I don't I would be interested in what you say about this, but I don't know many people who are ever taught to do that. It's like either either we have, and actually, this might get me in trouble here, but I love these conversations, so I want you to kind of push back against me if you see it. But let me tell you what I see, and we'll see if I get in trouble with the audience as well. But in general, then these are gross generalizations. Like in general, here's what I see. Men in this particular situation, right, would go, I'm not feeling this at all. So men are pretty good about regulation, so good with emotional regulation that they go into emotional suppression, right? That's pretty typical for men. They regulate so much that they go into suppression. For women, I feel like sometimes they can't regulate. And what they do is they just process emotion all over the place, which this is the standard cultural sort of dynamic that people say. Oh, women are always emoting and men are never emoting. And what we see here is someone that goes, No, I can regulate. I have the ability to regulate when I need to regulate, but I don't suppress, I actually come back and allow that to move. That is a whole different, sophisticated move around emotional um stuff. So I don't know if you have anything to say about am I getting that right? Because it sounds that's a different move than I think what most people would be doing. They'd either be gushing, gushing, gushing emotion, or they'd be suppressing, suppressing, suppressing emotion. And you're pointing us to this idea of like, no, I regulate when it's required and you know, appropriate, and then I express when it's required and appropriate. I remember that I need to express this, and so when it's appropriate and I have the time and space, I allow that to happen.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

I think when it's appropriate and also possible,

Making Space To Feel Again

SPEAKER_00 20:05

because there's also been times, and I love that you speak to this stereotype of male and female. I definitely see that, and I love speaking with men. I have a lot of male clients that I work with one-on-one. I also have a lot of just a lot of guys in my life who are friends, and I I laugh because I literally I love making grown men cry. And I have at least like one or two or three guys that are crying on the phone at me every week. And I love it because they pick up the phone and they're willing to share their heart and their emotion. And that feels like a true honor for me. So if you would ever like to do that, that's totally available for you as well. Um, I just I feel like the work that we're all here to do in the world, and it's not just for us as psychologists and practitioners, but as friends, as spouses, as daughters, as sons, as brothers, as sisters, is to practice, first of all, being able to hold ourselves in emotion. Because if you can't do that, if you've got leaky energy, if you're all over the place, you can't be that for everyone else. And then also practice being able to listen to what someone else needs and be that safe space for each other. So I feel very, very blessed that I am that for so many people and also I have that in my life. To answer your question and to really touch on more of the regulation and um dissociation conversation, I also know that it's down to the capacity that you have available at the time to regulate, be dysregulated, be overwhelmed, or do it differently. I, whilst I'm giving you my ideal scene of having done this really well, I've also had times where I have not been able to do this really well. So, I mean, complex PTSD and PTSD, they are they're not easy things to navigate. And my experience of, I've had a PTSD diagnosis twice in my life. And it was really fascinating because both times it we were looking at what is the symptom versus the cause. So I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety twice, and both of those things were symptoms rather than root cause. The first time it was actually due to mold poisoning. So that was a chronic experience of many, many different symptoms, and we were treating the symptoms and we weren't getting down to the root cause. Once we dealt with the cause, it all went away. And then similarly, more recently, with I had a really rough run of a lot of compounding traumas all at once. And it felt like, and it's easy looking back, and you can kind of make sense of it in your own mind. It felt like I was running a gauntlet. And it felt like I was dodging these bullets all of these all of the time. And I was just trying to deal with right, what's the big major problem that I have in my pathway right now? And how can I deal with this? In the UK, we have a game when you're a kid, and it's it's um I can't remember, it's like this little thing pops up and you have to hit it, and then it goes down. I think it's called whack a mole here.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

It felt it felt like that. It felt like my life was whack-a-mole. And I was like, right, where's the next thing? Okay, bang, that one's gone. What's next? What's next? And when you're in that run, resiliency is a great thing and grit is a great thing. I felt like after that period of time, there was some degree of a hangover. And that was the experience of PTSD. So I had to go back and look at where I had experienced a dissociative effect, and perhaps where it had felt too difficult, or I didn't have the resources, or I was completely overcapacity. So it felt like, and my friends even said to this, they were like, you were literally a zombie. We were like, this is not okay. Like this is too, she's like, she's got too much on her plate, and we need to really be there for her. And at the time, I just listened and I was like, okay, you're right. I knew something wasn't right with the way that I was operating because my capacity had gone down and I felt like I was struggling to function. I was still getting all of the things done. So I was high functioning, but I wasn't getting more than the survival, more than the minimum done. So I think again, it comes back to how can we get to know ourselves so intimately so that we recognize our own patterns and behaviors, and we have people around us that do as well. So that in those times of challenge where perhaps we are over capacity, we can have the honest reflections of someone saying, Nick, like, I feel like you haven't accessed your rage over this. And my immediate response is, I have denial. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

I know you're smiling aloud.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

I will smiling, yeah. Trauma response, by the way. So you have to recognize your own patterns and have those people that can be radically honest, where perhaps you're not being radically honest with yourself yet. So I'm really good at taking direction. And those honest appraisals have allowed me to go and get the next step of the help, whether it's maybe working with a more somatic-focused practitioner or maybe do an IFS or maybe looking at do I need to cancel some things in my calendar? Or where perhaps can I just take stock and look at asking myself the question, what is it I really do need right now? So I think that there's an example of a really simple situation where I've done really well, but I also want to reveal the truth behind the scenes that it doesn't always look like a perfect way of moving through things.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

Yeah,

PTSD Capacity Limits And Honest Mirrors

SPEAKER_01 26:00

we kind of we kind of heard it from you too, right? Like when you said, like one of the things as a clinician, I noticed these kind of statements. So I noticed when you said, I was kind of afraid, is it coming back? Like that is that that's kind of that sign of being like, uh-oh, I know this thing can exist, and I am hyper-vigilant to sort of pay attention to it. And so to me, that that's always the case because to me, the story, like you have that old story back here, but here's the new one, right? But it's not like this one ever disappears, so to speak. And of course, you and I are gonna have this conversation as we get to know each other better and through our program. I'm sure we're gonna have this conversation again and again and again. Because to me, I'm you're interested in sort of resilience and this whole aspect. And I'm interested in the story, and I know you are too, but it's like we're I'm interested in the story. I go, I want to know what is going on with Nick underneath and my patients and clients underneath that is a story that allows her to come out of it. And we've already got some of your story, right? Where it's like, you definitely believe in ownership. So that story is like radical ownership. That story is somewhere in Nick. And then there's also this story of like connection and other things that your values, that's somewhere in you. And I am interested in to what extent does that, is that the thing that you know sort of buffers you? But I I I love this idea because you and I both know right now there's people probably listening to this who are going through really difficult things. I mean, it's like they it's like they say, life is a full contact sport. It's like you get your ass beat in life in all kinds of areas. And to me, I don't think that most people talk about it this way. Like, you know, you're basically saying, yes, I I have a process I use, and sometimes I can be really good about moving that energy, and sometimes I can be really bad about getting that that moving that energy. And I'm an expert at it, right? And I could still sort of get stuck. So I I want to go into a little bit about this story. Do you know? Are you aware of like the Nick story? Are you aware of like a story that perhaps you've carried around with you that has just been there that it like allows you to be more resilient, or is this a story you had to construct from getting your ass beat?

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Yeah, it's both. It's both. And it's there's also like we affirm stories, whether they're positive and facilitative, or whether they are destructive and they can be self-sabotage. We're always stuck in evidence one way or the other. I think to speak to how I'm able to get through things, and then I want to touch on the story. Something that I've also got really, really, really good at is looking after my physical self. So I do a sauna every single day, and I'm always moving my body, and I'm really, really good on breath work. So, as well as these, like the moving of the emotion, I'm always looking after myself physically. And I think there's something to say about that. Um, so I know that I'm as strong and as vital as I can possibly be, no matter what's gonna get thrown at me. And then on the story, I think that I have two things that come to mind straight away. The first thing is like I know I am always gonna be okay. Like, I just know that I've got this deep, it's like you're not even a belief, it's that I know it. Like I know I'm always gonna be okay. There's no option not to be okay. So I will never quit because even in those moments, and I think once you've visited suicidal ideation in your life, I don't want to speak for everyone, but I know for me that that thought has now crossed my mind four or five other times when things have been really challenging. And it's not a nice thought or place to be in yourself where that even becomes an option. And at the same time, it's never going to be something that I ever ever do because I have the experience from when I was a child of all of the shame that came with that of having done this to the people that I love or put myself and other people in that position. And because of the work that I do and how many lives we are saving every single week through the book and through positive psychology, like I'll never let that be the story. So whilst I know that I'll never go there, I still go there in my mind sometimes. And that can feel scary. Um now it's more curiosity than scary because I'm like, oh, like that's here again. And what is that showing me about where I'm at within myself and my life and what is it that needs to change? So it's maybe more of an indicator than something I would ever take action on. But I think because I know that I'm always gonna be okay, I know that I will never quit. And when I get to that point, I'm like, well, if I stop, okay, so stopping for me might be um completely giving up doing nothing, cancelling all business, like all bets are off, like do nothing. And where I go to myself is, well, if I stop, I'm just gonna have to start again. And it's way harder to get momentum from zero. Think of it like a plane. You're having to get the plane up in the air again. All of that energy's got to go in and getting the plane off the runway. But your plane's already in the air. It might be a little bit wobbly, it might be flying a little bit lower than usual, but it's easier to keep that momentum and keep it going than it is to crash land and then try and start all over again. So I'm always mindful of that. And I know I'll never quit. So I'm like, well, I'm gonna have to start again. I may as well just keep going. So that's the first story that I have. The other one that I have that has been very present in my life is a story of survival. And this is the one that I don't love, Jade. This is the one that I'm totally

The Stories That Drive Survival

SPEAKER_00 32:05

happy to be like, I'm gonna listen to all of your audios and do all of the practices because I'm like over it. Um, because I know that I'm always gonna be okay. In some way, I've got comfortable with it perhaps being more of a struggle or holding more pain than is necessary or normal. And I think it in part that comes from where I'm from in the UK and also how I was brought up. Not necessarily brought up, but the almost like the conditions that I experienced as a child, which is the same for all of us, by the way. But my mum had a nervous breakdown when I was five years old. And I realize now that because she couldn't give love in a way that perhaps would be normal, whatever that is, um, I didn't necessarily know how to receive fully. And it was normal for me to have to fight to be loved and have needs that perhaps weren't met. So I just became this hyper-independent eldest daughter that was very, very responsible. And everyone's like, oh, she'll be all right. Like she she'll figure it out on her own, which was great and is great because it's true. And it's great up until a certain point, until that becomes a thing that is actually limiting you.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

Yeah. Now, so now actually I have a I'll I don't think you haven't taken this, but I'll tell you. So I have this quiz that I give uh people when they enter into our programs. It's at for those of you who want to do this, it's quiz.nextlevelhuman or no, quiz.humanununiversity.com. I'll put a link associated with this podcast. But the the interesting thing about this quiz is that it tells you there's six major, of course, there's infinite ways, but there's six major ways that we cope. And so right away, like with Nick, I go, and you and I are so similar, there's no reason why we uh kind of vibe together because you have the soldier in you, which I say that's this is one coping mechanism that's just like I'll just soldier through and take on all the stuff. And then there's also the striver is another one in you that basically goes, I will just figure it out, right? And these are these coping mechanisms end up turning into our superpowers, but they also end up in my mind, oftentimes there's a shadow side to them too. So they are the thing that makes, like, you know, Nick the superwoman, right? But then there's Nick the person who could perhaps be burnt out and struggle through that that process. And I think we all have this. I also think the stories, and I'm I'm curious what you think about this from a positive psychology point of view. I also think the stories and squaring this stuff, like the fact that you see it and I see mine, happens when you do hit rock bottom. Or you have a very good coach or someone who can point it out to you before you have to hit rock bottom. But most of the people I know who have deep wisdom about this had to go to these pretty dark places to actually see this is sort of what I'm doing. Like I know for me, I have a very soldiering, and by the way, same thing. I had an amazing mom. My mom loved me so much, but she was incredibly volatile. I never knew what I was gonna get. Emotions were up and down like this. So I learned to not trust females and not trust female emotions, right? So that was my story. And then I soldiered through and became more like a saver and a soldier, you know. And then that was amazing because uh people really loved me and I had connection because of that. And people are like, oh my God, you're so wonderful, Jaden. You take care of everybody, but then it sort of burned me out. And so this is what's really interesting about these stories. So I don't know if you want to say anything on that, but I I do I do want to sort of understand that so then we can take some of what I know you're amazing at, which is this other side of things, which is getting people out of, you know, just working from breakdown to breakthrough and actually getting them to get past upper limit problems. But first I want to talk how these people who are in this struggle, because I know you do both and you've lived both. And I do think we need to talk about this struggle before we go, okay, now how do we get from somebody who's okay, now I'm back to normal, which Nick is also an expert in. And now I want to break through upper limit issues, which are two different problems, but the stories are still there for both of them. But I don't know, what do you think about that whole idea of the story and the idea that there's a shadow side and there's a other side to it, and also the fact that we've got to come to terms with it. And how do you see that through your lens?

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Yeah, it's definitely the I mean, the over-expression, even the overexpression of a strength, can be maladaptive. So if you're constantly doing the same thing all of the time without looking at how does this work in harmony with the rest of my life or with the the way that I get to feel while I'm on my way to my goals, it can be something that can get us stuck. So, whether that is just surviving and you're not actually stretching your mind and you're not expanding to look at, well, what would be a 10X version of the life and the person and the result that I want to create here? And why am I settling on some level, consciously or subconsciously, for this tiny little breadcrumb over here when I know that I'm all powerful, able to create, able to receive. So I think it does take the introspection to look at what it is that has been running the show. And again, it comes back to the radical honesty. And sometimes it's not what you

Strengths With Shadows And Radical Honesty

SPEAKER_00 37:45

want to hear. Like, you don't want to hear that your behavior or your choices or your beliefs have been self-sabotaging you. You might want to say, like, this is not my fault. Like, this just happened to me. So you do have to be really honest. I also think there's a degree of surrender. So sometimes we grip so hard on the way that we want it to be or the way that it has to be. And the shedding, I know, is something that is beautiful and painful at the same time. Now, I have known of the this concept of like the Saturn return or um going through the dark night of the soul or the midlife crisis. And I definitely had that when I was 27-ish, had a big life change, left the UK. And I feel like I revisited that again in these last few years. Now, I do not believe that we are in midlife. I'm 39 now. I've got like many, many decades ahead of me. And there's something about this phase where there's a reorganization of the way that we be and the way that we do things that doesn't necessarily feel comfortable. And afterwards we can be better than before. So I actually went back and I read this book, you know, back on the Catholicism again. There's a book that was written, it's so random. There's a book that was written by a like a saint or something. And I saw it in my friend's library when I was back in the UK last year. And it was like the dark night of the soul. I thought, I'm gonna read that because whilst I know this conceptually and I feel like I can process things and make choices and make decisions based on that, I want to actually be the student always. So I read this book and it was all about how through tough times it brings us closer to God, to spirit, whatever you want to call it. And I just recognized so much of myself through reading this ancient text, and it brought me a lot of peace because the concept in that spiritual context is you're going through a desert, and the desert is actually bringing you closer to everything that you want. And I look at the way that I'd been doing things, and I've been doing them in a very linear, same-same way for a lot of time. And if you keep doing the same things in life, you're gonna keep getting the same results. So it felt like I'd been gripping onto things being the same, even down to me living in the house that I lived in. Loved it, obsessed with it, living in LA, obsessed with it, same thing until I wasn't obsessed with it anymore, until I loosened my grip, until I surrendered to perhaps there's a better and a bigger plan than the one Nick Pigeon has for herself. Like, how dare I think that I have the best plan? And really I didn't. And I look at how it's like, what is the what is the one step or the one decision that can help the reorganization happen in a way that doesn't need to be a push? It can be more of a surrendering to the process. So I had this this calling inside of me. I was like, I just really want to be in the ocean. Sounds so bizarre, right? I just want to be in the ocean. And I'm not getting in the ocean in Los Angeles. It is so cold. I may as well be back in the UK. So I'm like, maybe I'll go to Florida and be in the ocean in Florida. So I came across here a year ago, almost a year ago, and have never looked back because it was the catalyst to changing your environment, changing your look, if we want to put it simply. And it felt like that reorganized things or started the shift energetically to things lining up in a very different way. And a lot of who I am and what I do is exactly the same as I've always done it. And a lot is very different as well.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

Yeah, that to me, this what you just went through right there should be again a whole book. Because to me, this is that that thing that you talked about being asleep, going through the dark night of the soul, struggling through the old patterns, not letting, not being able to let them go, being stuck on them, obsessed with them, and then being forced to go. I need to reorganize myself. Like I look at it like we've got two phases in life the conditioning phase and the awakening phase. So when I think of midlife crisis, I think of midlife awakening. And awakening and the dark night of the soul obviously has to come before the awakening. But most people die in their 80s, still in a conditioning phase and no judgment because it's not fun. But everyone I know who has made this journey has a story like that where they had to reorganize their life. Things shed, things disappeared, jobs lost, relationships finished, uh, all kinds of uh health crises that that had to be worked through, and all of that type kind of stuff seems to be what happens. I am curious that I think, and this is where I get a little bit woo-woo. So bear with me here, we'll get woo-woo for a minute. And a lot of people don't hear this woo-woo side of me, but I wonder, I just wonder if there's something purposeful about that, that when you don't move towards your true work in the world, your work being how you matter and make a difference, not your job, how you make money. Your work is how you make a difference, your job is how you make money. But if you're not moving towards that work that you are uniquely here to do in only the way that you can do it, I feel like first life kind of whispers in your ear, and then it taps you on the shoulders, and then it kicks you in the genitals, and is like, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna beat your ass if you do not wake yourself up. And I am obsessed now, and I can see that you are too. I'm obsessed with doing this on purpose. And so now as we kind of wrap up on the the other side of this, what have you learned in the work that you do? Because I know this is what you do. You help people do this on purpose, and it's really interesting because it comes from a place of having walked that very dark, scary and being and having your ass beat in multiple ways. Like I'm thinking, I had a I had a rough marriage and you know, I had an affair, and like you had to go through that, and then I had a rough, my I had a mother wound. I did not have what you had, like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And of course, we never want to do, you know, comparison shopping of wounds, but it's super interesting that you went through all of that to learn how to kind of wake up and do this on purpose, and you walk people through this. So now I'm

Surrender Dark Night And Changing Environment

SPEAKER_01 44:30

like, you know, tell me how do we do this on purpose for people listening to you and I who are in this place and they're like, I want to know what it is that you are doing on purpose to get people now to break through because you're no longer, you know, in this place where you're there. You're now at this living this extraordinary life that looks like, you know, um, it's it's like watching, you know, like a fantasy reel, you know, watching, you know, sort of your life. It's it's it's it's beautiful. How does someone you know do that? And I mean that in this way, just so everyone's clear. I don't mean that in the way of culture, right? I don't mean it's like, you know, oh, fancy things and lots of. I mean it in the way of it seems to me, Nick, that you're living the life in alignment with the life that you want to live, or at least you're moving in that direction to such a degree that it almost feels like. Just a force happening. And I don't think people know how to make that transition. Maybe they know how, maybe they've made it out of the hardship. And now they're sitting there being like, how do I 10X in relationship or in finance and career and business or in health and fitness? What happens now? This is the other side of your expertise. What have you learned in this space?

SPEAKER_00 45:47

I love it. I love my life. Like I really truly love my life. And I'm very, very grateful for the life that I get to live. What I love about it is the people that I get to invest it with. And I'm very proud and protective of my relationships. That's always been something that's been a high value of mine. And I will fight you that I have the best friendships in the world. So hand you one of them. So it's the same thing. I love simplicity. And yes, I love being on the stages and having the amazing outfits and doing all of the things and making a course for Tony Robbins and going to the Senate and doing the policy work for suicide prevention and all of the big things. I love doing that. And I love going for a walk and feeling the sun on my skin. And I love that moment when I do get to get in the ocean. And it's like everything dissolves. And it's like a nervous reset, nervous system reset in that second. I love the simplicity in the moment. And that's so much what positive psychology is. And the idea of being able to just choose to do some more tiny things in your day that make you feel a little bit better, you'll start to notice that you feel a lot better more of the time. And you'll look back and you'll see how far you've come. So I'm really big on compounding activity and looking at right, what am I, how am I going to show up today? And knowing that perhaps you're not going to feel that today. But when you look in six months, you'll be like, whoa, all of that effort that I put in really paid off. So I think that's the first principle that I stand by. The other one that I stand by is almost completely like polarized to that. Because I also believe that we have to be going for the big wins as well. And sometimes the audacious goal doesn't even feel like it's possible. Like it doesn't feel like it makes sense right now. But when you can decide you can command the energy and that life trajectory can also line up for you. It's almost like you set the big intention, and then there's a backwards reorganization that can happen. So 10 years ago, I would have thought that it was absolutely outrageous to say that I would be creating a course with and for Tony Robbins. Like that just is like, why would that happen? And then I was invited to do that for Tony and Dean's mastermind. And there's a course there called The Science of Happiness now. That makes no sense for a girl from Newcastle. How did that happen? And I had to point myself in the right direction to be able to make that lineup in some way. Another example is I ask myself sometimes, like, what is the thing that only you can do? Or what is the thing that you can do better than 90% of people? And this is where doing a PhD came from. Because I was like, what are some of my strengths and what is the path that I've walked for a long time? And not everyone can do a PhD. Not everyone has a science-based master's that is going to line up to do a PhD. No, not everyone wants to do a PhD. But I almost felt a little bit of responsibility in that to say, well, I can, so I should. So I'm going to. So I asked myself those big questions, like, what else can I do that is better than most people? I've worked out six days a week for pretty much 20 years. And I know that I am physically strong and fit. So I decided this year I'm going to write a column for Strong Fitness Magazine and I'm going to do a magazine cover. These are like crazy things that I nobody's like walking past and saying, Do you want, do you want all of these things? It's not an applied I had to decide. I'm like, this is something I want. I don't know how I'm going to get it, but I'm going to live in the crazy and we're going to figure it out.

unknown 49:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:48

And you do figure it out. You do seem to be able to figure it out. And let me tell you what I hear there to make it sort of actionable in my work, because I'm like seeing now, I'm like, oh, this is interesting. So what I see is the concept of reps. Some people might call it fake it till you make it. I hate that term. I don't know if you like it, but I like be it until you see it. Because to me, faking is like I'm not actually the thing. So it's not actually in me. I'm pretending versus I actually am this. I just don't have this yet. Like before I wrote my first book, I was like, I'm going to do what a writer does. I'm not going to fake it. I actually am writing. I'm writing every day. I'm reading every day and I'm writing every day. That was being it, not faking it. Right. So I see you going, I'm going to be it, and I'm just going to do the reps. Then I see this other thing that is really interesting. And don't let me put words in your mouth because I'm really interested in unpacking this. And you might go, no, Jay, that's not actually it. But here's how what I think is happening. And then you can be like, nope, not quite. But here's what I think is happening. There is something about Nick that is unique. There's never been another Nick. There will never be another Nick in all the history of mankind, right? You occupy a unique space and place right now in this universe. There can never be anything that duplicates that. Same with me and same with all of you listening. And then from that space, and this is what I heard you say, I can do something that only I can do in the way that I can do it. And I choose to put my effort and will into that direction. Is that what I heard you say? And if it is, then I go, okay,

Compounding Habits And Audacious Goals

SPEAKER_01 51:35

you and I are so in alignment, and I didn't know how to phrase it exactly that way until right in this moment. Because then I go, then there's those two things. This be it till you see its stuff is in service of this, the work that only I can do in the way that I can do it. And let's just see how far I can get with it. And you also talked about the idea of surrender, which I also love because in this process, and this I think is a hard part for some people, is that there is a degree of surrender. And in that surrender, life points you in the right direction. Like I could right now go, you know what, Nick, I am going to become a world-class pop star. I'm going to be as big as Taylor Swift, right? And you're going to be like, okay, Jade, go for it. The only problem is I can't sing. I don't have the voice box for it, the genetics for it, the training for it. Like none of that lines up with who it is I am. And therefore, I'd be faking it. And life would fix that. I'll never forget this one client I had out in LA who wanted that this was her story. We worked together and worked together. And what she had to do is give up that idea. But in that transition, she realized she was an amazing voice coach. She didn't have a great voice herself, but she knew an amazing voice. She knew that music was kind of it, but she had assigned the wrong thing to it. And in our work, it was like you're gonna have to surrender that. Music is the passion, chase it, but allow it to show up the way it was gonna show up. And what ended up happening is her being an amazing voice coach that she now loves. And it seems to me that this is what we miss. So correct me where I'm wrong here, or agree with me if you want. Like, how do you see that?

SPEAKER_00 53:16

I feel like that feels correct. And in that, there's a degree of balancing the intense pressure that we put onto ourselves to keep moving in that direction with the surrender. So I feel like more times than I would like to admit, I'm like, am I actually crazy for thinking that I can do these things? And what is going on with my life right now? And it's manageable, but it's like it requires you to expand and raise your capacity of what it is you're able to deal with and handle and do in your day, and then also be surrendering to the process. So there's this energetic balance that's going on between I want to do big things, and I know that when I keep moving in that direction, it's gonna work. And I do have to keep pushing forwards and keep pushing myself and keep stretching myself. And if the assignment is due, then I need to stay off those extra hours, or if I've got a deadline for the next book, then I'm gonna get it done. And I'm gonna get it done well, and it's gonna feel difficult. And then also I have to give up the control because there's perhaps some things that are gonna have to get delegated or deleted. There's perhaps some things that I'm gonna just have to trust the process. I'm gonna have to be in full faith and say, like, I surrender, like I give it up. I don't know. I don't know how this is gonna work. Like, please give me a sign somewhere. And I think that that dance is something that we have to practice. We have to feel, we have to learn, we have to understand. How can we distinguish between a feeling of alignment and misalignment? How can we start to not just feel intuition, but actually take action on it? And all of this stuff, it's not it's not new concepts that you've heard. It's things that we have heard from grandparents. It's things that we know, we know, we know, we know. And it's like, are we actually gonna get better at doing them?

SPEAKER_01 55:15

Yeah, I love this. And maybe this is where we just uh wrap up and have like sort of a final conversation just on this piece that you just mentioned, because I think this is again where I'm fascinated. So what you just said is how do we know? Now, now we've kind of discussed, come full circle. We had this sort of here's how you kind of deal with the collapse. You come out of the collapse, and here's some of the things that you do to sort of move forward, doing the reps, you know, doing the work that only you can do in the way that you can do it, showing up for that. But then there's this idea of, okay, but I don't really know. I'm human. I can't read minds, I can't, you know, I do the best I can. I'm trying to follow the way. How do we make sense of that? And so I will start this, get your take, and then we can kind of wrap up. But like one of the things that I feel like, and I want to just see how it works for you, but here's how it works for me, for me, and when I'm working with my clients. If I am working with Nick and she says to me, you know, it's the same thing, same emotions keep coming up again. Oh my God, Jade, I ran into the same obstacle again. Like, why is this happening again? And actually, you alluded to this, right? Like this time in your life where it's like, is this happening again? It's showing up again. So I go, if there are repeated patterns, stuck emotions, recurrent obstacles, to me, this is the way, call it what you want. I call it source consciousness. Some people call it God, new age types call it universe or the spirit. But I do go, that is something that is guiding you and saying recurrent obstacles, stuck emotions, repeated patterns, pay attention. Now, on the other side, and this is what I'm interested in understanding from you, from my perspective. I go on the other side, it seems to be something very different that's hard almost harder to read. Synchronicities, serendipities, new opportunities, um, positive signs, they're often uncomfortable and scary, even, right? Where it's just kind of like, what that is just weird, or I'm not used to that. That's not me. And I go, it seems that every time I make the choice towards that foreign and fearful path versus the frustrating and familiar path, which I normally always want to go, every time I make that fearful and foreign choice, it turns into fulfillment and it turns into fun. And I have learned to just go, maybe that's the tea leaves for Jade. Now, maybe it doesn't work like that for Nick, but I'm curious, how do you see that? And how would you coach someone who's like, okay, now that you're here, how are we gonna read that you actually are going in the right direction and you're not trying to be Taylor Swift when that's just not in the tea leaves for you?

SPEAKER_00 58:01

I feel like for me, it's a feeling. So rather than it being a fear, it's often an excitement, it's an energetic alignment. It's what brought us together on this podcast today. It feels good, it feels easy. There's a degree of you feel like you can be friends and also challenge each other to be better in that. So that's the kind of thing that I'm feeling into. It's where is where where

Reading Alignment Intuition And Opportunities

SPEAKER_00 58:30

is the energy looking to go? And where perhaps are my old patterns or frames of doing things blocking the energy that wants to come in? Is there someone that's trying to help me that I'm not letting help me? Is there an invitation that I forgot about that would be the most the thing that's lighting me up? It's already sitting there. I'm just not seeing it. Because when we're in tough times, our minds and our cognition, they shut down. It can get contracted. We don't see the opportunities that's around us. So for me, and then that's a positive psychology theory. When you're in a good feeling state, you notice the opportunities that are around you. And often it might come in a different package than you're looking for. So you might be thinking, I just want to sign the next client. But actually, the gateway comes in an amazing relationship that you meet someone at a dinner and then they're the person that you feel so connected to, and you go on and do a collaboration together, or you go on and travel the world together, or whatever it is. But I think it's getting used to following the threads and it not always being in the place that you used to look in.

SPEAKER_01 59:38

I love that. So it's like openness and flow and growth versus stuck sameness contraction is what you're sort of saying there. And you just have learned to read that energetic.

SPEAKER_00 59:51

Even if it doesn't necessarily make sense, but you can start to see, oh, if you track it back, usually there's a decision that's been made, and it's a decision that's either come from alignment or misalignment. Either this feels good and I'm gonna follow it, or this doesn't feel good and I'm gonna follow it. And I know that when I've had that and I've overridden the intuitive decision of this doesn't feel good, but I'm gonna follow it, that trajectory has put me into the wrong space and place. So I've gotten much, much better at practicing and listening. What is it that really does feel true, good, and aligned right now? And how can I move in that direction?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:29

And that's a skill. The cool thing is that's a, I mean, that's still a skill I need to learn better, but it is a skill that I have learned and I'm getting better and better. And it's interesting to me when I hear you say that. I'm like, obviously, Nick has learned this skill as well. I think um, I think you all see why I wanted Nick to come on and chat with all of you because you can see how brilliant she is and all the things that she has done. I'm gonna give you a final say, Nick, and give people a chance to sort of understand where they can find you, what kind of resources that they have for you. I know you've got a certification for professionals. I know you've got courses for individuals, I know you do executive coaching, you do a lot of things. So if someone's just like, oh my God, I'm so in love with her, how do I get in touch with her and work with her? How can they find you?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:18

I get to do all the things that I love. So I'm very thankful for that. And thank you for having me on the show. It's just been an absolute joy. And I have the Positive Psychology Coach Academy certification, the books, now is your chance in one more day. And the websites at my name, Nick Pigeon. The place I love to hang out the most is on Instagram. So if you can put up with my dodgy Geordy Northern England accent, I would love to connect over there. And I'm probably gonna send you a voice note.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:45

Uh, you're so amazing, Nick. So hang on the line because I just want to make sure this all uploads for the show. But for all of you, thank you for hanging out with me and Nick today, and we'll see you at the next one.