Welcome And Why Jeff Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:00

All right. Welcome everybody to the Next Level Human Podcast. We're actually coming live to you on Substack and YouTube. And I'm here with somebody who I've been wanting to meet for a long time. In fact, a mutual friend of ours, an acquaintance of ours, tried to hook us up. I don't know, Jeff, it must have been like five, six years ago, maybe longer than that, actually, when you first started doing some of this work. I've been a fan of yours since I learned about you. You and I never got to connect at that time. Yeah. But we get to connect now, which is really cool. So all in good time. And this is uh Dr. Jeff McNary, and he runs one of the, if not the premier wellness retreat down in Costa Rica, a place called Arhythmia that I have heard nothing but amazing stuff about. I never got to go down yet, but I've it's just one of the most amazing places. People have some of the most amazing healing experiences there. Uh, he is a side, he's been in this world of personal transformation, especially specialties in psychedelics and plant medicines and all that kind of stuff. I'm gonna let you tell your story, Jeff. But you have been kind of a pioneer for a lot of us in this space. Grateful for your work and grateful you and I get to hang out. And so I guess the first question for you is give us an idea of your story, how you got into this, you know, Rhythmia in general. Just give us the sort of the overview of you, your work, and and your purpose and what Rhythmia is all about.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Amazing. Thanks, Jade, for that introduction, man. What a great vibe. And I'm so excited to talk to you because, like I said, you know, like you said, we've been trying to touch base for years. So this is gonna be really cool. So I started off my career at UCLA uh med center. I was studying, I was gonna be a medical doctor. I had done uh an undergraduate degree in medical anthropology. So I like the cultural side of medicine and healthcare. And then working in research there at UCLA, I decided to get a master's in public health from UCLA. And then I started managing part of the hospital. And what I saw was a lot of symptomology treatment. I saw a lot of like, you know, stabilization of patients, which was great. But anything that had a mental health component to it was overlooked. And so I got disillusioned with the medical field. I kind of already was, but I decided to not go to medical school, but instead to go get my doctorate in psychology instead and try to fill the gap that I was seeing in mental health services. So during that time, I was in my postdoc, I worked at a rehab called Malibu Passages. And uh that place was really nuts because I had never worked in like a high-end treatment center or anything like that before. I was working with low-income, underserved mostly and kind of a public health approach to Los Angeles County. Reproductive health was my specialty and women's health and stuff like that. But at that facility, they had a lot of really cool different modalities of treatment. They had spiritual

From UCLA To Building Rhythmia

SPEAKER_00 2:51

counseling at the rehab, they had body work, they had Chinese medicine, they had all these things that I didn't learn at UCLA, kind of more holistic stuff. And so I kind of got um a little bit opened up into that, into that world that there's this other sort of stuff that you can do to heal. But I still didn't know much about it. I wasn't an expert or anything. And in came a patient from Pennsylvania, a guy named Jerry Powell. Now, Jerry Powell was a super wealthy guy. He just retired. He was a demerol addict, a cocaine addict, an alcoholic, and just a disaster of a person. He was a nightmare. And the the staff of Passages was so upset with this guy, they just didn't even want to work with him because he was aggressive and adversarial and he just he intimidated everybody. So I said, all right, let me just let me give a crack of this dude. Let me let me try to work with him myself, you know. So I took him on as a client for two months inside the rehab. So he stayed 60 days, super expensive. But he got rid of his demerol habit, which was amazing because that's very dangerous. And then he moved to Malibu, which is never a good recommendation to stay sober. So for the next five years, I put this dude in my private practice and tried to just keep him alive. And it was uh a lot of hard work, to be honest. And I didn't have any of the backup that we would have at passages of all these different therapies, so I had to kind of fill the gaps myself. And he got suicidal one day, and this has happened maybe three times in the past. And I was just like, dude, you can't, you know, yeah, I knew his family. We were doing family sessions, like you can't do this, bro. And he's like, give me one reason why not. I said, Well, because you're you're my only client, you know. I tried to make a joke, I tried to make a joke in that, but he kind of heard me and he said, All right, I said, dude, take a vacation, go on a break. So when he was on a break, he was in the Philippines and he was with his girlfriend. He actually didn't even go with her because they got into a fight, of course, in the airport and whatever. So he was there by himself and he was uh still suicidal. So a shaman aftercare person that we would refer people to from passages for like continued work contacted him and said, I have a feeling you're gonna do something sketchy. Can I come visit you? Because I'm running a no-speak retreat in Cebu. And Jerry said, Of course. So she came over and she challenged him to try plant medicine in Costa Rica because she already knew his case and knew what he'd been dealing with. And she said that she had another couple clients that were sort of like Jerry, like these ultra wealthy people that were miserable. And she said, I think it'll help you turn around. So Jerry said, sure. And he and he went to Costa Rica. I didn't know he had gone there. And he went through a week long of it was actually eboga at the time. So that's a really deep plant medicine that's from the Congo. I'm sure you're you're very aware of it. And it's it's intense. And so it completely flipped him around. It got rid of all of his addiction cravings. It helped him realize his trauma that he had from his grandfather when he was a little boy. He had blocked it. And it helped him figure out why he hated himself, why he hated everybody else. It was like this amazing transformation. So when he got home, I didn't even know he was there. And I just blew your mind, I'm sure. You were probably just like, what the hell happened? Yeah. Yeah. I was like, I'd never seen anything like it. Like in a week, this guy was the one of the worst and most difficult clients ever. He turned himself around and he was like, had all this motivation, all this energy. And to be honest, I was skeptical because it was so weird. I'd never seen this before. So he said, You're gonna come down with me. We're leaving in two weeks. Get your bag, let's go. So I was like, okay, well, I was a little nervous. I'd never done anything like this, no psychedelics, nothing. And I went down and I did it with him, and I was like, wow, this is an incredible tool. And that's where Jerry and I said, that's in 2014. We said, we want to have a facility that is medically licensed, that is safe, that is clean, that has nurses and doctors and therapists, and can hold enough people from all over the world and is safe. And so that's why we went on a hunt for a property and we found one here in Costa Rica, and we've been here ever since. So that's that was uh 12 years ago. Yeah. So we we've seen 23,000 people.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Yeah, it's amazing. I'll tell you what, Jeff. Like I that story is so cool. And you know, we we at here at Next Level Human, we talk about this idea of essentia. It's kind of like your evolved purpose, it includes your essential nature and your earned wisdom, kind of your life experiences and your free will. And all I'm thinking about as you're telling this story, I'm like, here's Jeff living his essentia. Like it literally, like it found you to this place. And obviously, I know now in hindsight, I mean, I know these stories being a businessman myself and trying to build something. I'm sure there was a lot on the way that you had to get through. But the fact that you've arrived at this place now and have created something that I know, heard from many, many people has been so powerful for them. Yes, is absolutely amazing. I know that what people are gonna want to know from two guys like you and me. It's interesting, by the way, that you said you had never done any of these substances. You know, it's the same for me, man. Like I literally, the first time I ever had like got buzzed was from alcohol, was probably in undergrad college and just didn't like it. First time I got high on weed or smoked weed was like probably medical school and didn't like it. Had never done any kind of psychedelics. So I also entered this realm as a novice and not knowing anything about it, you know. And other people who did this when they um, you know, were young, they did it partying. I've only ever done it in journeys, and I have nice found it to be one of the most profound experiences of my life. It it it certainly is. All of my experiences. I've done ayahuasca one time, LSD one time. Uh, I have not done Iboga yet. But one of the things that I want us to talk about is it's really interesting that we both arrived here. And it seems like we both arrived here because initially we saw something incredibly powerful happen that we did not believe could happen with the clinical training that you and I both had. And I see it now the same way. This has, I am, I am doing adjacent work now to this, but I would say that experience is what brought me to the work that I am now. It opens something up in me. So I'm curious for people who are listening to you and I, and they've probably by now a lot of people who would be listening to me have heard a little bit about how these substances work and what they do. I'm curious hearing from you, what do you think when you said this is an incredible tool? What is going on with these compounds? What are they good for? What are they not good for? Like, can we just go through a brief uh sort of education for someone who's kind of like, I've kind of heard about this stuff. What do they need to know from, you know, a psy D, you know, who has his doctorate in psychology and, you know, a naturopathic doctor who's getting his PhD in transpersonal psychology. Obviously, people like you and I, who have a very deep knowledge set, why are we moving in this direction?

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Amazing question. And just to be clear to the audience, arrhythmia serves ayahuasca. It doesn't serve eboga, even though that was Jerry and I's first plant medicine. We we got to know a lot of other ones, San Pedro. We we looked at ketamine. That's not a plant medicine, obviously it's synthetic, but a psychedelic. We looked at other things and we came, we rested on the the protocol with the with ayahuasca, and we can talk about that too. But what I've noticed with all the psychedelics that are therapeutically based, which is pretty much all of them, there's a there's a very interesting psychological component that's happening for people. Now, as we know from the DSM, which I'm sure you know you as well as I don't like using much, right? Because it's it labels people, it's categorical. We don't really like it. We all know insurance companies must look at that for some reimbursements. But in that DSM, in the DSM 4, so the version

How Psychedelics Shift The Ego

SPEAKER_00 10:45

right before the five that we use now has a category called access to personality disorders. And those disorders have been reframed in a different way in the five, but nonetheless, those personality disorders, the current ones, which there's 10, they'll have something in common. They have that the people that have these conditions look at the world from an egosyntonic position, which means they're looking at the world from their eyes, which is normal, but they believe that everybody else is seeing the world in the same framework. And like if I feel upset, you must have to feel upset too. And this environment must be upset as well. It must be chaotic. But that's obviously not a healthy way to look at the world because I might be upset, but you might be in a great mood. But I can't understand that when I have a personality disorder. So what I try to do is I try to make everything the same as me, and then I feel safe and stable. So what what the protocol for those people clinically is dialectic behavioral therapy, lots of work, lots of effort. However, with plant medicine, in particular ayahuasca, is that you get to come out of your own egosyntonic view, and then you can observe what you're doing, how you're feeling, almost like you're you're your own therapist. And then you become what's called egodystonic, which is you understand a more healthy version. Other people might have a different view than you, and you they might have different emotions than you. And from that position, you can move forward in life in a way better sort of understanding. So that's that's one thing it's really good for.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Yeah. Yeah, it's you know, it's really interesting too. It's like immediately you hear from people that they feel more connected to everyone and everything uh around them when people go through this process, which is uh, you know, what Jeff's talking about here. You hear this over and over again where it's like, oh, I didn't know. And actually, it's really uh interesting. You may have more details on this, but one of the studies I was looking at on the big five personality trait, which is now the big six, but openness to experiences is one of those personality traits. And one of the things that I was amazed about with these things is after one dose, the trait of openness changed and changed forever from that moment forward in this particular study where they looked at people, which speaks to what you're talking about. It opens people up. And if some of you are interested in the science behind this, a lot of, because I have a lot of uh practitioners who are looking at neuroscience. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, Jeff, but the DMN, the default mode network, is an area of the brain. It essentially holds the identity of Jade, the identity of Jeff, the identity of all of you, and that identity can become very focused, looking at ourselves as the center of the universe. And I think what you're saying here is that essentially this broadens that and essentially goes, Jade can be connected to Jeff, and Jeff and Jade can be connected to others, and we can even be connected to a much larger and broader environment, which these things open us up to. And it does, we don't have to get into this, but in the current day and age and the current cultural zeitgeist, this is especially valuable in that regard. But it's doing amazing things for us on this level of identity. 100%. I don't I don't know if you want to add anything to that, or did I get anything wrong there?

SPEAKER_00 13:57

No, that's amazing. And we we look at the default mode a lot here at Rhythmie and we explain that to people because it's so important what you just said. It's exactly it's a perfect definition of what goes on. Because also what I what I found clinically and therapeutically for people is that you know when we go through our life, we might have a moment where there's a traumatic event, or maybe from childhood, there's a traumatic upbringing of some sort, whether it's abandonment, neglect, abuse, whatever, or even misunderstandings too can be traumatic. So when we're in a traumatic moment, the emotions that are present get in the way of our survival and our ability to fight or flight. And so I don't want to feel scared when I'm being abused. I want to push that fear away so I can not freeze, but I can get away. And sadness and worry and guilt, all of those things are gonna hinder my ability to be on point and get out of that situation. So all those emotions go into the amygdala. And the amygdala, as you know, is the part where it's the part of the brain that stores a lot of our subconscious thoughts and emotions. And it's kind of like a place that we just hold up stuff that we don't want to use right now that are emotions. And then what happens is we go about life, trauma's over, and those emotions need to be addressed, but we don't know how to access it. The Western clinical model doesn't really go there. Uh, in the 70s, it got a really bad rap by taking people regressively back there and plant it was considered planting uh negative, traumatic thoughts that were not real. So the field of psychology really got away from that. But lately, thank goodness, it's come back in a good way to kind of look at it in a safe manner. However, it does take a very long time to surface those emotions from the amygdala and process them in the prefrontal cortex, which is our logical, rational consciousness self. So, what plant medicine does is it unlocks that amygdala and it creates a neuron pathway of through synaptic plasticity, which is the movement and molding of neuron communication cells, to our awareness. And I go, oh, wait a minute. I remember my dad, I thought he didn't love me, but oh my gosh, he did. He was just busy working, and I felt it was my fault he wasn't around at night. And oh my gosh, and I feel it, I get worried, but I understand it, and then I release it in what's called a psychosomatic response. And that's the other part where people might throw up, people might have to go to the bathroom, people might shake a little bit, or they might cry, even laugh sometimes. Not some all it's horrible stuff, like it's just a release physically, and that's the processing of the emotional baggage and the trauma. So for people that have depression, anxiety, PTSD, also with the veterans that we work with, the PTS that's so strong, those people do amazing with this because they finally get to unlock that stuff that's been driving them and they get to clear it out. So for me, that's a huge thing that the plant medicine does.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Yeah. Yeah. And I and my I talk a lot here about this idea of MUD, misguided, unconscious decisions. And I want to run this through you because I want your clinical evaluation of this and just selfishly, I want to talk to a colleague about this. So this mud, misguided unconscious decisions, right, these can occur through trauma, which would be sudden, severe emotional events, or they can occur through drama, which to me would be subtle and continuous emotional events. And so we do talk a lot about trauma, which you're talking about. I also am interested in drama, these more subtle, continuous emotional events, but ultimately form these mud complexes, right? How I see the world, the story about myself and the world. Am I worthy? Am I safe? So to me, this is what you're talking about, Jeff. And then, of course, mud can thicken up into cement and combine with rebar. And that rebar to me is the emotion. So now you got this mud and this rebar complex that is this very stuck cemented complex. And from my perspective, just what Jeff said, I became interested in this complex and what can we do to access it? Because to me, I saw therapy as very conscious-based, logic-based. It can't really get in this because this has a lot of logical, conscious ways of defending itself. So if we can get into the subconscious and break this structure up, move the emotion away from the story, you can see them

Trauma Storage And Emotional Release

SPEAKER_01 18:14

for what they are. You can see that the misguided part of it was at that time where you made that choice as a young kid or growing up, you didn't have the knowledge, the experience, the know-how, or the wisdom to make sense of it. So, from my perspective, these compounds allow us to look at this in the subconscious way and oftentimes see them for what they are. And I'm going through that process with you because I want to ask, you being the expert in this, is this the way you're seeing this, or is there another component to this? Because I guess the next part would be then the integration piece, where then now that you've seen this, you need to take real life, real world actions, and there's an integrated integration component there. Is this how you're seeing it? What am I missing?

SPEAKER_00 18:58

And would you say this is a viable way of explaining it? I love that explanation, and that is exactly how I see it as well. The one thing that I would add is that sometimes we come across people that have had um their mom or dad had trauma, their grandparents had trauma, and so on and so on. I come from um a Scottish lineage on both sides of my parents, and they're from the highlands of Scotland, and it goes way back. And those people back then, my ancestors, were dealing with a lot of scarcity, war, aggressive living, high infant mortality rate. So they were like these hardcore people in Scotland. And what happened is genetically what got passed on wasn't necessarily emotional trauma. But what did get passed on was the trauma response, which is a can be looked at as a high surge of serotonin that comes naturally to people, also a high cortisol level, also ways that that are very fluid in pushing emotions into the amygdala. So what happens sometimes is we might inherit a framework that is not conducive to being calm and stable. And there's something that that even if we go through something small, it gets thrown into the amygdala. So some of us, the bulk of it is definitely the mud. That's something we've been through, we experienced, we've created these structures. But there is a sliver of it that's that's our operating sort of way that we inherited or that we observed from our ancestors that we were alive for, maybe great grandparents. So those both of those types of scenarios can be resolved with this process because the key to it all is intention setting. So if you don't have an intention, it's kind of like can be just random and open and sort of not as clinically relevant. So we that's what a big part is we teach intention because that's what lines up that pathway from the amygdala to the prefrontal cortex. There's an epigenetic component of a Sigmar gene that gets activated, which helps that process. So the intention is really key. And we talk about that with people the whole week that they're here. Because if not, then you know, we've learned from scientific studies, whether placebo studies and different medical research. It's the mind is so important in healing. You have to believe you're gonna get healed while you're going through a healing process. So I would say that's the only thing I would add, but I I love that explanation. The mud is perfect.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Yeah, I love this. It's almost as like if I'm listening to you correctly, it's almost like you have, yeah, you have this individual mud, but then you have maybe interpersonal mud, you know, between you and your father. And then you've got sort of this cultural mud. And what you're talking about is really interesting, which is intergenerational mud. And that and for those of you who are interested in this intergenerational mud, we actually have studies showing epigenetically that DNA changes based on exactly what Dr. McNary's talking about here. Now, one of the things you mentioned, which I think is just really cool because while I haven't been to Rhythmia, as you know, it's been on my mind and my interest. One of the things we talk a lot about here, this idea of intention and set and setting. And I would love for you to talk a little About that, because what's really interesting about Rhythmia from looking at it and hearing about it is people are going to this incredibly beautiful setting. It's not like this, you know, stark white wall hospital type of thing. You're in this beautiful retreat in one of the most beautiful places in the world. And there's a very conscious, you know, it seems to me at least, and I would love to hear you see how you came up with this. It seems that that's consciously put together. So it's not just the intention of the individual. I'm also wondering about the intention of the space that you've created. So I would love to hear about set and setting and that idea and this idea of intention a little bit more, especially for people if they're interested in this work so they can prepare themselves and know what to expect.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

I always tell people that, you know, you could go have plant medicine in the in a basement in Brooklyn, but but the environment is not going to help your process. Now, some people can do that and have an experience that might be profound. But most people, and the research, as you mentioned, backs this up. The set and the setting are very key to having this go the right way. So at Rhythmia, first of all, like because it's a medical facility, people might be thinking, yeah, it's like a white wall medical center. It's like Johns Hopkins with psilocybin studies. It's not, it's not like that. This is a beautiful resort. We bought it as it was a boutique hotel.

Intention Setting And Inherited Patterns

SPEAKER_00 23:17

It's right next to the ocean on the Pacific side. It's a beautiful 14-acre lush jungle area with 65 rooms. And there's a spa and a pool and a cold plunge and a sauna, and there's body work and there's meditation classes, yoga every morning. Amazing organic food that matches something called the dieta, which is a way to eat for ayahuasca to be more effective. And then we have an urgent care center on site. It's staffed by four medical doctors, 12 nurses. So in the Maloka, which is the area where we serve the ayahuasca, it's a very nice, beautiful space. It's real zen, and it's got a nice soft floor. It's got seven bathrooms. And in that space is where the shamanic team will do their magic. And what that is, is that our team has trained for many years, and some of them 30 plus years, in the administration of ayahuasca in a way that is tradition based from these indigenous communities in the Amazon basin, mostly of Colombia. Some of our shamans were trained in Brazil, and some of them in Peru, some of them in other parts of the world, some in Costa Rica. And in that space, they're using all the traditional sort of tools that the shamans have passed down from generations in their tribe. So we have icaros, which are chants, there's uh blessings, there's saging, there's Palo Santo. It's a very cool experience for people that have never seen anything like that because they get to participate. And I call it uh being the participant observer because I don't come from an indigenous community, I come from Los Angeles. So I grew up in a different kind of jungle, you know? And so what I see is I as an anthropologist, I learned I can participate in something, I can obtain the benefits of that ritual or that ceremony or that rite of passage, but I'm still observing it because that's not necessarily my culture. And that's where I can really grow as a person because I'm getting to participate with these people. So our workshops are really important in setting the intentions and having people kind of focused on what they should be doing. So we teach, we have, for example, today's Monday here in Costa Rica, and of course, around the world, and we have a bunch of classes all day. This is the day one of the program. They checked in on the weekend. But today we have classes, and what we're doing in those classes, we're showing them we have three intentions we teach people that are super important. Show me who I've become, merge me back with my soul at all costs, and heal my heart. Those are three things we have people work on during the week. So our curriculum caters to those intentions. The staff are trained in how to help the guests get those intentions. They might get uh confused, so we have one-on-one coaching for that. But the shaman team, which is usually about a four to one or a five to one ratio in the Maloka. So it means like for every four or five guests, there's at least one staff member there to watch. So there's a ton of people. We have 240 staff members at this facility. It's a huge place. And so we believe that if you don't feel safe, then you're not gonna go deep. You have to feel safe because a lot of people don't like being vulnerable. Being vulnerable means scary. And you know, I was vulnerable when I was a kid, it got disappointed. I don't want to be vulnerable. But and that's fair. But now, as an adult, you can be vulnerable, but you just have to feel safe about it. So our entire program, all the modalities that we offer breath work, tons of different stuff. We have a hydrocalonic cleanse that people do, all different stuff. It's all meant to help people relax, feel safe, and be able to go deep into this process. So for me, the intentions are everything. And when somebody gets those three intentions, they they report it on an exit survey. Last week we had 100%. Most weeks we have 100%. Every once in a while, one or two say no, and they might stay another week and get it later. But it's a great, great process that helps people have like a tangible accomplishment that they can then use moving forward in their lives at home.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Yeah, I love this so much. One of the things that uh initially drew me to you and your work is that it seems to me that you've thought of lots and lots of different angles here. There is a lot that goes on, and I certainly have seen different places that aren't, you know, putting as much time and effort in this. And then it shows with someone who's who's a clinician. I do want to talk to you a little bit about this trauma versus drama distinction because I want to, I'm sure you get both of these people, right? So I know that some people would say, most people I work with, they go, you know, Jade, I don't have any trauma. And I go, I get it, you know, but we all have drama. We all have these subtle continuous conditioning things that happen to us. And so I love, right, for these people with true trauma, they come to these places, they have incredible healing. I would argue, and I want to hear your take on this, is that a lot of people who go, I don't have any trauma. Why would I do this? I'm like, you can even get even better results because what ends up happening there is this conditioning that is keeping you stuck. You know, new relationship, different face, but same pattern. Uh new job, more money, but same amount in your bank account. New diet, lose some weight, regain it all. These patterns that we stay stuck in, and high performers, especially if you're a high performer, you get stuck in these patterns. This is the drama. This is the mud. These patterns are what keeps you stuck. And I'm curious what you've seen with these individuals, because you and I both know this is incredibly powerful for taking someone in breakdown to a breakthrough. But then there's also sort of these people who are going from breakthrough to elevating to a whole different quality of life. And I would love to hear you talk a little bit about that and what you've seen.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Well, it's interesting because my own

Set And Setting Inside Rhythmia

SPEAKER_00 28:57

sort of experience kind of fits that model. Like I didn't think that I had some significant trauma. I felt, yeah, you know, I went to graduate school. I'm smart enough to get a degree, which doesn't mean maybe a lot, but you know, as we know. But um, but I felt like I was helping a lot of people. I was to be a psychologist, you have to be sort of stable, you would hope, right? Some a lot or not, as we know. But you know, in my degree, I had to get 65 hours of individual therapy before I could graduate. So I don't know if it's like at the transpersonal uh degree, is it like that too? You have to get it.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Yeah, well, there's there's a lot of work that is done, but no, it's not as robust as getting a side D.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

Yeah. So so that's obviously very important to kind of just have that self-exploration as a clinician. So when I first tried plant medicine, I was like, well, I don't really need this. This is like, I don't have trauma, like I'm good. But what happened was, and we see this pattern with a lot of people that they come here, and they might not be able to remember trauma, or it's not a h hindering them, they think. I went back to my childhood when I was about seven years old, and I grew up in a rough area of Los Angeles, and there was a lot of violence around me, and I was a little kid just running around like doing my thing. And I went to that little boy, and I did, as we all know, um, in psychology, they talk about inner child work, and I never really understood what inner child work was. I thought it was just all in your head. I just didn't really buy into it too much. And I was an individual family child psychologist, so I learned about it in school, but I just didn't really know what, like how to do it, really, to be honest. So I went to the little me and I had a dialogue with myself. And the little Jeff said, Dude, I'm scared. This is a dangerous neighborhood. There's the, you know, Juan down the street got shot, and Donnie is trying to rob a liquor store with a fake gun. He wants you to come with him. Like, I was like, whoa, wait a minute. And I remembered all of this stuff that I just thought was part of just my life. And it wasn't, I never looked at it emotionally. So that stuff surfaced and I let it out. So I was able to, as you mentioned, like some people just kind of level up in their self-awareness and maybe in their level of peace. That absolutely happened for me. My patience became much more stable, meaning that I bit wasn't quick to anger. I have five kids, so I'm quick to anger. I got a two-year-old, so there's a lot going on around me, right, at all times, which is beautiful. But I just got to let it really see that, you know, it's not about necessarily some horrific trauma. It's more about clarity and self-connection. So we have a lot of people that come here like that. We have a lot of like, we have different walks of life from all over the world. We also have like super high-powered CEO types and everybody in between. And those people often think, hey, I'm super successful, everything's great. I I don't even know why I'm here. My wife made me come or my husband made me come. Those people go the deepest because they don't have that fear that's holding them back necessarily. Now, they might have resistance, but that resistance is often not fear-based all the time. So for us, I believe that, you know, everybody that's medically qualified for this is going to benefit from it. And I I don't think everybody should just run and do it. I do think it has to be a sort of a, you have to have like a calling to it a little bit. You have to have like your spiritual self has to sort of lead you there. You know, it doesn't have to be some dramatic thing, but it has to sort of call to you as what is what we've experienced with most of our guests. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

I love that. And I want last line of questioning, because you and I both have appointments that we got to get to, but I don't, I want us to go. You and I have never got a chance to talk. And so I wanted to, I really wanted to ask you about this. I have come, I think, dragged kicking and screaming into my spirituality. Largely, I credit, largely I credit um ayahuasca and some of these experiences uh with this. And now I would love to just briefly talk to you about the spiritual component of this because one of the things that I think happens, I was solidly agnostic or leaning, I was basically atheist. And then ayahuasca came along. And I was like, okay, I have just experienced something that I cannot explain. I was given things, direct knowledge and insight and experiences that I can't explain. And to me, it is one of the most beautiful experiences of my life. But I want to contrast that with something else I see. And I just want to see what the expert has to say about this. At the same time, what it did for me is it opened me up. It made me much more humble in who it is that I thought I was. Now, when I do my work, I'm like, it's not Jade, it's something working through me. You know, I'm I'm a participant, I consider myself and others simultaneously. I'm much less attached to my belief structures. I have seen, however, some people who kind of seem to go the opposite way.

Spiritual Insight And The Pink Cloud

SPEAKER_01 33:59

They'll get these spiritual experiences and then they become like the exalted one. I have all the information, I know all the things now, I'm so wise. Meanwhile, their life and patterns in their life seem to be not, you know, not very uh constructive. And so I'm wondering, it's something I've always wanted to ask. One, question one in this is what about the spiritual component and what it connects you to? And also, what do you say is perhaps going on here with this dual thing that can sometimes happen? Is it just that this other person needs more work? Is it that I'm somehow confused about what has happened? I'm just curious from the expert.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

I love that question. And it's nice to see that you're carrying the torch for Maslov and Union psychologists. That's amazing. So that's so cool. I'm very similar to you. Like my spirituality became really strong through this experience. I was raised Christian, super religious family. I never really felt it. I'm like, yeah, whatever, it's a good way to live, whatever. I never really was connected to it. But this has helped me connect to my spiritual side. And the way I explain it is you know, we have so many people from all of the world, different religious backgrounds that come here from all different countries. And so we're not a denominational place, we're non-denominational. But what I explain to people is we can all probably agree that there is an other part of us, like the duality of a human being. And sometimes I call it the spiritual self, the soul, the energy, the consciousness, whatever fits your sort of view. And most people here agree upon that. There's this dual part. So we teach that that spiritual self or that soul is a perfect, high vibrational being that is your true self. That is who you are. And it's in this body that's imperfect, it has flaws and is learning and making mistakes and all that. And the goal is to try to plug in as often as we can to that spiritual self by bringing our body on board energetically. So there's different ways to do that. Plant medicine's one of them. Because as someone of our shamans says, when you drink ayahuasca, you drink you drink a cup of nature into your body. And I think that's really interesting. Nature is at a very high frequency, that's in tune with everything and the universe and the spirits and the heavens or whatever you view. So you take that into your physical self, and that's where you merge with your spiritual self. And then you can see through your spiritual eyes, feel through your spiritual being, and you remember what it's like there. And that's where there's consulta where you get information for yourself, you're seeing things clearly. And then this the session ends, and then you you kind of dip back down. But then you might do have another plant medicine session, or you might meditate and get there. You might do some exercise and get there. Or breath work or breath work, absolutely, or or a great conversation and get there, or music. I know in the transpersonal psychology, music is a big thing. So all of this stuff reminds us that the true authentic self is this spiritual person that's that is us. And we're trying to connect with that as often as we can. So I think what happens is people that go that have that experience, and then they go down this road of like, I'm exalted, or I'm this like spiritual giant. I call it being in the pink cloud. And that's a that's an addiction term. When when I used to work work at passages and I worked at a lot of other uh addiction facilities, when somebody's newly sober, they feel amazing and they're so happy and they're so excited. And we call it being in the pink cloud because in that zone, it's very easy to not do the next set of work, which is how do I avoid that negative environment? How do I get new friends that are using, I don't want them? How do I, you know, not get triggered with my parents? And they just like neglect all that stuff because there's feeling so amazing for the first time, probably in decades. So I believe there's a similar sort of response with plant medicine and this kind of work we're talking about, but people can get into this pink cloud where they're like, oh my gosh, I feel amazing. This is incredible. And then they kind of think their work is done. And it's just not. You have to have tools to continue to integrate what you've learned, what you've seen, and move on this path. And really, as we all know, right, like the more you learn, the more you know you don't know anything, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:26

100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

Amazing. What we have uh one of our staff members here, Ben Decker, he's a meditation sort of guru guy. He goes to India and he was just there a couple months ago and hung out with the Dalai Lama, wrote a wrote a book with him. The Dalai Lama tells Ben every time, I don't know. Who knows? I don't know. I have no idea. Like he just he does not know what to do. He's just living in the moment and humble. And I think that's the model. You know, there's all other models, but I just feel that people, you know, we've seen it a lot. We see people drink medicine and then all of a sudden they're serving medicine. It's just really, to be honest, it's dangerous, not just for the people they're serving, but for themselves as well.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting the way I love the way you put that. Thank you for that. Because it's just something I always wanted to ask, you know, someone like you. It seems to me that it gets you on the process. Like one of the things that happened to me is I used to be very outcome-based, right? It's like, achieve this, get this result. You know, it's all all I was striving for outcome, you know. And through this work, you know, some of the some of ayahuasca, some of the psychedelics, but but through this work that you and I both do, the broader work, which these psychedelics can be a part of that. Now I'm much more process-oriented. I'm I'm interested in, you know, like the principle of Wu-Way. I'll know the action to take when the time comes. I learned the lesson I didn't know I needed to get to where I wanted to go. And it's a far more interesting way to live. And it sounds to me like you're kind of saying that that some of these people, they'll use it. They're still maybe stuck in outcome-based sort of thinking or this this sort of uh way of thinking. They feel so good and they kind of still have the same environment and they don't realize that this is the start of a process that is freeing in and of itself. It's not the end of the journey, it's kind of the beginning of a process of deep, deep, deep awakening. It sounds like uh this is more what you're you're leaning towards.

SPEAKER_00 40:22

Yeah, the the action through non-action is such an important concept in Wu Wei. It's like to be to be a nerd for a moment, you know, in the Lord of the Rings, Gandalf tells Bilbo and or not Bilbo, but Frodo and Sam, don't kill Gollum. You know, you want to, he's a mad, he's a bad dude, but you don't know what purpose he might serve later. And that's the concept of Wu Wei. Just let it flow, let it happen. Who are you to dictate the future of that person? So, or that thing. So Wu Wei is a huge, huge, huge part of this. Like the river will make it to the ocean. Let's just see how it goes. It's gonna find a valley and a canyon, it's gonna get there. So the understanding that I'm on the same journey, that I'm just gonna deal with my life and I'm gonna be alert and attentive, but I'm not gonna force things because in the forcing of things, you miss so many opportunities for growth. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

Yeah, it's really interesting, right? It's almost like we get these people I talk a lot about, you know, you're not on the path when you're getting recurrent obstacles, stuck emotions, you know, struggles on repeat, same patterns again and again. Yes. But you know you are on the path when you start getting synchronicities, serendipities, new opportunities, new ways of being, positive signs. And to me, I feel like these experiences open you up. So these people who are kind of stuck in these patterns, they go through these experiences, all of a sudden now they're like, they start seeing synchronicities for the first time, serendipities for the first time, new opportunities for being. And they have to, this is where I think some of the training for the heart goes, you have to train the intuitive sense so that you can follow those and really resist the instinctual sense, which will pull you back into fear. This is the integration stuff that you and I both both work with. But I think it's critical to understand, I think that's what this work is doing. And it sounds like you you're in agreement with this, that it's getting you on this path of synchronicity, serendipities, getting you out of these recurrent patterns that we all go get so stuck in. So I guess the the final thing for me would be, and final question I have for you would be what is it that you what is it that you want people like me to know and be educated on? What is it that you that just lights you up, Jeff, that you're just like, you know, Jay, this is why I do this work. This is why I wanted to have this conversation with you. Here's what I want to tell people. What's the final thing that, you know, that you wanted to say that you maybe I haven't given you a chance to say yet? I love that.

SPEAKER_00 42:43

So, you know, the way I look at it, I'm uh the workshops that I get I give and the lectures I go do around Rhythmia and other places has a lot to do with people that are empaths, that have the ability to absorb and hold energy from other people. And we all have this to a degree, but there's some people that have it like really extreme, like it's a huge thing they do, and they're often not aware of it. So, what happens, in my opinion, for people that come to Rhythmia and people that are in a clinical setting or trying to work on themselves is they have to distinguish between what is it that's actually my own process, my own emotions, and what is the other of people around me or the environment I'm in. And if I'm absorbing all this stuff all the time to hold it for people or to understand who they are so I can navigate around them like a compass, I'm gonna pick up a ton of this emotional projection constantly. And eventually I'm gonna get flooded and I've maxed out my effectiveness. So I need to distinguish between what it is that I'm holding, get it off of me, and then focus on myself and be connected. The hyper vigilant sort of position these people are in creates safety for them, but it's exhausting and they're doing it 24 7. That's why they have insomnia. So, what I believe is an important tool with plant medicine and therapy and everything. is to help people understand

Empaths Boundaries And Energy Hygiene

SPEAKER_00 44:02

what is theirs to have boundaries with themselves. So what boundaries with self are, how much of my own emotional energy am I willing to invest in someone else to meet their needs. My two year old daughter gets as much as I can give her. My 26 year old daughter gets a less doesn't mean about it's nothing to do with love. It has to do with how much I'm going to meet her needs. If I started meeting my daughter's needs of 26 the same as my two year old, she'd say, Dad, you're being a psychologist again. Stop. So I I get reminded by her constantly. So I'm aware of my own emotional process. And so what that allows the empath to do, and again all of us have empathy is it gets me to really plug into who I am. When I know who I am and I can feel who I am I understand that how these people around me are feeling because that's I'm connected to that. I don't want anybody around me to feel sad, misunderstood, hurt, in danger or anything. So I'm going to do what I can to help these people around me, whether it's my family, my friends, my coworkers, to be safe as well. But I can't do that work if I'm flooded and I don't know who I am. So I believe that the world changes based on each individual healing themselves, understanding their empathy and then able to show true empathy empathy for those around them. And that's what creates this shift. It's amazing. I love that's my that's what I talk about. Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

That is a whole other thing I would love to just dive into I know we're we're running out of time but I let me just say this because I also you and I totally vibe on this. I feel like the whole reason I started next level human like if it had a if it had like a tagline it would be changing the world one purpose at a time which is waking people up to this emotional maturity waking them up to their empathic natures and that we're connected not just to to other humans but to all of nature and that we have something unique that we can do in only the way that we can do it. And when we start walking that path our world changes we enrich others and then we can evolve the world and I really feel like that is what you are tapping into. And then selfishly what you were saying you know is wise for me too right as a as a healer and a clinician yes I oftentimes get this energy on me that I'm oftentimes like oh I'm good realizing later oh that this energy is in me and I need to move this. And so a lot of my work is about that. So I just love what you're doing. Obviously Jeff you you just excite me in your work I'm incredibly grateful for your work. I I love what you've put together. I just want to say thank you uh from the bottom of my heart for your time and for the work you're doing my friend.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

It was a great talk. I would love we could talk for hours man. Yeah next time I'm in Costa Rica I'm coming I'm coming to see you my friend you're you are you are my guest anytime just let me know. I'd love to have you would love it my friend.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

All right uh so actually just stay on the line real quick I'm gonna shut off I just want to make sure this uploads but for all of you thank you so much from me and Dr. McNary. Talk soon. Thank you. Let's just make sure that