elcome And Today’s Topic

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Hello, everybody, and welcome to uh Next Level Human coming to you live on uh YouTube and Substack and Facebook today. And you all know uh Danny Coleman, who is uh someone I've worked with for a very long time, one of my best bros, and I always love when we get a chance to do this. We try to do this every Sunday. We've missed a few here lately. Um, but anyway, Danny, it's good to see you. So we had a couple topics that we wanted to uh kind of throw around, and Danny and I are gonna kind of decide on the fly which which topic. So usually when we do these lives, you know, Danny and I will kind of text back and forth and say, hey, what do you want to cover today? And he's reading a book on um narcissistic leaders. Is that what it is, Danny? What's the name of the book?

SPEAKER_01 2:16

So you're gonna hate the name of the book. It's called poisonous people. I know you hate that term, toxic people, uh, sort of in the same vein, but she is a clinical psychologist who studies uh what's called the dark triad, which I know you're familiar with, Jay, but there's there's multiple legs to that. One is the narcissism leg, one is the psychopathy uh leg, which she spends that's mostly her expertise. Uh psychopathies, which she's kind of talking about, but she does touch on narcissism, and the last one I think is sadism, where you enjoyed.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

Machiavellianism, yeah. Machiavellianism, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Or sadism, that's right. Okay. So those are the big three. So she spends a lot of time on uh psychopath. So I texted you, and we can take this any direction, but I texted you, maybe we talk sort of about this. There's a couple interesting things from the book that I'll just run by you on the fly and let you kind of react to this, Jabe. Yeah. So she says in her work, uh, about 10% of the population qualifies as psychopathic. And now not all of those people necessarily become serial killers. Some are your boss at work, some are your father-in-law, some are just in our lives. And then there's another 10% that scores really fucking high on those assessments. Oh, look who it is. Ray Ray. Speaking of the bright, the light triad.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

He he really is the light triad. Yeah. So we're becoming in your perfect timing because um and you may hate this topic, but you're in you're in the arena now, baby. But we're talking about uh, I'm reading this book called Poisonous People. We're talking about kind of the dark triad of kind of difficult personalities. And I was just gonna let Jade live react to some of this information that I kind of stumbled upon. And then I would love to get the group to talk about how do you deal with some of these people when they're they're not that, they're not that psychopath that is a serial killer or a murderer. They're more, they score very high in the assessment, but they do not qualify as psychopaths. So her whole point is like, look, about 20% of the population scores very, very high, if not clinically diagnosed psychopaths. And she goes, this makes our life very difficult a lot of times, uh, because most people, 90% of us, we are highly trusting of other individuals. We're highly trusting ourselves. And so it makes us very vulnerable to this kind of minority of people out there. And she talks a lot about how uh there's a disproportionate amount of these people in executive boardrooms. Um, so they get rewarded for bad behavior. So this is kind of what I put in the text is just around, hey, how do we stop rewarding bad behavior, even on a smaller scale in our lives? I've noticed there's a couple circles in my personal life where the worst behavior gets rewarded the most, meaning that person gets to choose where we go to dinner because everyone else just so annoyed, fine, we'll do what you want. Or the person at work gets gets to leave early because they're a high performer, even though they're crushing the culture. So I just uh that's sort of where I'll leave it. Just reacting to one, those numbers. And two, if you guys see that like in your practical lives, how do you deal with those people is sort of the guiding question.

hy Power Seekers Are Made

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Yeah, I think um, well, first of all, I think the research I've done on this, and I've I've done a really big deep dive into this realm because this is where the model that I have of base level, culture level, and next level humans come in. So when I think of base level humans, now I want to be careful here, and I'll lay this out so that way you and Ray can respond to it, but I think this is a good place to start. We do have to be careful when I think about base level, culture level, next level humans, there is kind of a hierarchy built into that, but it's also a developmental sequence. And so, from my perspective, when I think about these people that you're talking about, what happens is we all from the ages of zero to 10 years old have to go through this safety and security developmental period. And if that is not healthily developed and we don't feel safe and secure, we will develop coping mechanisms around that. And we will end up having decrements in safety and security. And then what is somebody who has a decrement in safety and security where they don't feel safe and secure in their life because of developmental upbringing? They will tend to be people who dominate, want to control, and especially be power seekers, because in their psychology, subconscious stories driving this behavior, coping mechanism is if I can control everything and if I have complete power, then there's nothing for me to be afraid of and I'm safe. So to me, this is the base level type of person. Now, there is a healthy base level that if you do feel safe and secure, you develop a healthy level of boundaries and standards, and you know when it's time to put your foot down and say, no, I have enough. So these people who are more base level, they're more Machiavellian, which means they're more manipulative. Why? Because of power. They're more narcissistic, overly confident, self-centered. Why? Because they're seeking power and they don't believe they can rely on anybody else. So they go for themselves and they're more psychopathic. This is that dark triad. And because they don't necessarily feel the feelings from others because they had that safety uh decrement sort of growing up. And to feel safe, there has to be a compassionate, empathetic connection to someone else. So I would call these people base level types and specifically people who have a deficit in safety and security. That's why they seek control. That's why they seek power. And I'll say one more thing before we see what Ray wants to say on this. My understanding of this research, and it may be this particular woman, I don't know her name that I used to read, and I don't know the researcher that I spent a lot of time with, but these people, I do know in the research, they tend to seek power, right? Because of this thing. They seem to seek control and seek power and manipulate for control and manipulate power, especially during uncertain times, which makes sense. Uncertainty pokes at their need for safety and security. So they go, I'll be the one, I'll jump up, I want to be in control, I want to seek power. So they tend to seek power in times of uncertainty. The problem is they also tend to get power in times of uncertainty because most of us are culture level in our ways of being, and we will default to ever who whoever appears to be most confident. And so not only do they seek power, they tend to get power. And I think this is what's going on here.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

It's actually interesting, oftentimes, so she she kind of highlights this that these types of people actually create chaos, and then because their personality is as such as you described, Jay, we actually seek them as leaders to solve that chaos. So the same creators of the chaos, we actually go to and say, can you solve this chaos? Not realizing that they're the ones that actually created it, which is interesting.

SPEAKER_02 9:09

Yeah, that's it, by the way. Like that's literally what manipulative people will do. It's it's gaslighting on a mass scale, basically.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Ray, what do you think about the the numbers? Do you think that many people, 20% of the population, has some of these sort of callous tendencies, maybe not clinically diagnosed, but score very high on some of these assessments? Would you say that's your your experience in working with people and and just being in this world for so long? And if so, how do you deal with these people? Do you just let them do you let them then or do you do you kind of you get stomped on on their way up? Like so I I agree with everything you said, Jay, the of just kind of how these people form. I'm just curious, now what do we do? Now that now they're 42 years old and they're my boss at work. What do I do with that?

elf Awareness Against Manipulation

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Yeah, I I don't know that I major in the subject of how many of them are there. I don't think that that's what I would do. I I think the more important factor is to is to speak to how you are going to live in this world. Now, from my perspective, I I think it all starts with with uh being able to step outside of your own um life and be able to watch your own life from the outside, to live with that self-awareness, which essentially is defined as being able to see what is going on inside and outside of yourself as though it's happening to someone else. And the reason I think that's so important is because when you're in these interactions with people who may or may not be narcissistic or you know, let's just say that they have their own their own um security and development placed above everybody else's, um, being able to see when people are interacting with you in a way that is manipulative, because in essence, what these people do, the kind of the harm that they cause is usually through manipulation of some sort, whether it's I'm I'm powerful and you're not, or I'm important and you're not. Being able to step outside and say, oh, look at that. This is uh this is a a narcissistic personality that's coming at me with arguments that oftentimes are uh grounded in a small amount of truth. Like they may say something like, oh, you know, that you bombed that last that last presentation, and therefore you're not great at presenting. So I'm gonna take that the helm and I'm gonna present this time. Well, the the truth may be you you did bomb that last presentation. The falsehood is therefore you are not good at presenting uh to people, and therefore I will take the helm and and and and uh be the one who presents moving forward. So being able to step outside of of and and watch this whole thing occur, I think is arguably the most important aspect of it. Because if you can't step outside and see what the person is doing, you can't fight it because you're just you're actually in the game thinking you are the player rather than being the person that's outside the game watching the watching the play take place. Um so I think it's very, very powerful to build that self-awareness. You have to start with yourself. You have to be able to step outside your own life and see your own thoughts and see your own actions as though they're happening to somebody else, in order to be able to step outside of the game of life and be able to say, hey, this is a this is a a play that's happening. And I'm a character, I'm playing a character in this play, and so are they. In this case, that you can you might say they're the villain. And uh and once you can do that, now you can you can play from a much higher level. And then that begs the question, well, what uh well how do you play as the character in a way that does not cause you to uh be eaten up by everybody in the in the game? And for me, because my tendency is to be stomped on, uh that's just my natural is go along to get along, and uh I've always lived with the philosophy that I'd rather die due to misplaced trust than live with misplaced distrust, that does have a tendency to uh put you in positions where you can be overtaken by people who play a little bit more harshly in the game. I've always uh the the conclusion that I came to was uh uh to play the game like Superman. Uh meaning that Superman comes from great strength, but also uh in at least in you know in in the uh early comics, came from the position of extreme dharma, extreme uh um values. So extreme values plus extreme strength, I think is the uh um character that I want to play in this video game called Life. And uh that's the best I've become because oftentimes what happens is you've got extreme values and uh mediocre to uh below average strength. Uh and there you you kind of take that it as a value in and of itself. Oh, I'm above playing the game. Oh, I'm uh I'm I'm a valued person, and therefore, yes, I'm getting taken advantage of, but at least I'm a valued person. And I just loved the supermodel kind of mentality, uh the super supermodel, definitely not a supermodel, but the superman uh perspective, which is extreme values, extreme strength. Like that's how you um that's how you play the game among this environment full of of uh potential, you know, narcissists and at least people who are a little bit more self-inclined than than um humanity inclined.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

Yeah. I'm interested in your take on it, Danny.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

There's two things that Ray said that I I love. One is is the self, not just self-awareness, but situational awareness. There was uh, I'm reminded of when when Ray started talking about the awareness feast, that is the first step because so often, well, I'll tell I'll tell this story. In college I got arrested just for doing college stuff, right? And my approach was first of all, the arrest was my fault in every in every every type of way. Like I pretty much could have got out of it in seven steps, but I kept doubling down on every step to make sure that I got arrested in college. And one of my approaches was the cop came to the door and I opened the door, and not only I I invited a man, like all the things you're not supposed to do if you're if you're playing on the dark side a little bit, college, experiments, you just figure stuff out, right? But my approach was to be so confident that he would be like, no one would be this confident if they were doing anything wrong. So I invited him in, have a seat on the couch. Can I get you something to drink? I'm like hosting this cop, which basically took away every right that I had. I invited him in. Yeah, go ahead, do that, please. Let me do it for you. Let me all let me help you search the place, type of thing. And I'm reminded of that story because, and and and while I'm reading this book as well, so often we invite these people into our spheres. Uh, she tells a lot of these narratives where we promote the person at work, and then they're like, the culture's gone to shit. Or we invite someone into the friend group and keep inviting them to social situations and then go, why do we have such a terrible time? Or why was that so miserable? Or why if we get into a huge fight and we find that there's this common thread? It's all every time this person is there, there is a rift in the group, or there's an argument in the group. But so often we're the ones inviting them in in the first place. And I think it's a really important point that to be aware of not just yeah, yourself and the role you play, but also situational awareness, I think is huge. And I just love, I love sort of the Superman analogy as well, because I'm a huge believer in social contagion. How you show up, it's our energy is contagious, our behaviors are get are get uh contagious, and our communications are contagious too. So I like everything that Ray said. I'm I'm sure you have some stuff to add, Jay. I just wanted to double down on those two points.

he White Pawn Trust Test

SPEAKER_02 17:31

Yeah, I mean, you know, it's not surprising the three of us uh agree. I I'll make it more practical from my perspective, and this might be where some disagreement comes in. Uh, I'll say a couple things, you know, to me about this. To me, it's 100%. I uh I reminds me of the Bruce Lee uh quote. I mean, he meant this in terms of martial arts, but he said, if you want to understand yourself, study yourself in action with another. He meant that in terms of martial arts, but I actually think it goes to Ray's sort of quote like, watch how you are with people and especially watch how you are with these people. And the way we learn is we see our approach and then we adjust. And you can talk to coaches like all of us to get some clues about how to be. So here's one suggestion I would make, and I'm gonna see how Ray and Danny respond to this. But to me, I call this the white pawn principle, right? And the white pawn principle is essentially comes from chess, and chess, white always goes first, and the pawn is normally the first move. So, with these people, one of the things that happens is they will want power. And what I typically will want to do is I go, okay, I'm going to make the first move, and I'm essentially going to give you that first, one try. So, in this particular thing, I may make the first move and be open. At this point, I'm acting from the place of giving, right? This is Ray's point of like, I would rather be overly trusting than distrusting, right? So for me, and I have extreme values, and so for me, my first move is I'm just going to trust. Now, the problem is though, you can't just openly trust. Trust is just the first gambit. It's the first move. And then what I'm doing is I'm watching is that trust justified? How is this person going to use my kindness? My are they going to take advantage? Are they going to try to come over the top? And what I'm looking for too is how they function with someone who's an equal. A lot of times with these people, and this is what's confusing, with these people, if they perceive you as underneath them, they actually come across as amazing humans. You actually will love them at first. They're my mentor, they're my friend, they're bringing me along. But as soon as they see you as equal to or above, that's when the claws come out with these people. That's when the manipulation comes out. So what I want to do is I want to give them the chance to see how they do, to see how they deal with my confidence. So I'm like, go ahead. And then as they perform, then I'm like, uh-uh. Or nope, that's not going to be good for me. And then the game begins. So for me, I actually give them the first move, and then I respond with boundaries and standards if I feel like I am being manipulated. And depending on how they behave, it's either a standard where it's a one-strike rule, you lie, we're done. Now we're in a matching situation and I don't play that game with you. Or it's a three-strike rule where I'm kind of like feeling you out to see, because sometimes it might maybe you're just a little bit rude, you had a bad day. Maybe that sneaky thing you did was just, you know, sort of, you know, you you were triggered in some way. But that's how I look at this. And I the reason why I think it works this way is because I want to know what I'm dealing with. And oftentimes people will get confused if they don't make this first move. They don't know if it, if it's them or if it's the other person. So to me, I'm like, I'm just gonna give it to you. I'm gonna let you make the first, I'm gonna make the first move, I'm gonna give it to you, assume you're great, and then I'm gonna watch. And this is what I think a lot of people don't do when they deal with these types. When they watch and they see it, they don't do anything about it. And to me, I'm like, here you go, here's the ball. Let me see what you do with it. Then I'm gonna step up and and and match you. And I'm gonna see, and now the game's afoot, and now we're gonna see what happens. And so to me, this is where the strength comes in, and this is where Superman steps up and goes, uh-uh. We're not, I'm not putting up with that. And this is what a lot of people don't do. I'll say one more thing about this and then see where you guys want to go with this. When that happens, after that white pawn principle, after that first move, you have got to hold your ground. This is where these people do not respond to weakness, and this is where a lot of people who are nice people and want to get along and they think, well, if I just I'll kill them with kindness, that is the worst thing, in my opinion, than you can do with these types. This whole mantra of kill them with kindness is the exact wrong thing to do with these people. They only respond to strength and control. And so you have to come with strength and control. Now, what I think fixes this so you don't become the thing you hate is what Ray said. The other thing you have to say, I just think you framed this up so well, Ray. The other thing you have to have is extreme values for your good. But being good does not mean killing them with kindness, being good means sticking to those values. And this is where we get, I think, thrown off with these people. So that's how I think from a position of strength. Yeah. From a position of strength, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Yeah. What about too late, though? Or it feels too late. So it's like, I agree with everything there, Jay. I think people run into issues, now they're in it. So now, um, because people who have these tendencies are really charismatic at first, like you said. They know how to play the game. And so people fall in love. Now they're in a romantic relationship with one of these people, they're stuck. Or they put 12, you know, I work in the corporate uh environment now, and they put 12 months of training, and they went to their boss and they said, Hey, we got to promote this person, they're fantastic. Then I train them, then I put all these resources into them, and time has elapsed. Now I can't go back to my boss and say, turns out I hired an asshole and they're killing the culture and performance of our entire team. So I guess my uh just a quick follow up, and Ray, you can answer this. As well. I know I interrupted you. I had to start on this thread. I thought it was a really good thread to kind of pull on a little bit of what do you do when it's quote unquote too late. I know it's never too late, but now you're in this thing, and the stakes are a little bit higher than maybe an interpersonal relationship where you can kind of get in and out. I go to work every day with this person, I wake up with this person in my bed. Like now we're in a little bit deeper. Do you how do you navigate those waters?

hen It Feels Too Late

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Well, I mean, there's an old Indian saying that goes, no matter how far down the wrong path you've gone, turn back. And uh so I think the first the first uh thing you have to understand is that there is no point of no return. And that you can right now make a different choice that sends you down a completely different path. Now, what does that look like? Well, oftentimes when you're in those situations where you feel like, oh, I can't get out, well, you're stressed out of your mind, which puts you in a in a mental position where you can't figure things out because you're so clogged up by the stress of everything. So the first thing that your brain needs in order to be able to release some of that stress is just a plan. So you're stuck in this relationship. And let's say that they're the breadwinner and you can't get out because you don't have any income or anything. Well, once you have a plan of how I'm going to get the income, and even though you're still in the relationship and you're still living in, you're still sleeping in the same bed potentially, you're you once you have a plan in place, now the brain will release a lot of that stress because the stress isn't oftentimes caused just by the situation, it's caused by the hopelessness of the situation. And a plan helps you out of that hopelessness so that you can kind of move forward. So that that would be the first thing that I would say. The second thing is, again, going back to the self, to the awareness of the situation, first see the games that the people are playing. Oftentimes, these people who are in these positions, they're they lack self-awareness. Uh, I was watching an argument, I was watching a uh a YouTube short by this this guy Chase Hughes that that um Jade and I were talking at talking about uh a few days ago. He said, he said, you know, one of the one of the the one question you ask somebody is, are you authentic? And he says, the people who are like are these narcissists will will uh immediately answer, yeah, yeah, I'm I'm I'm the most authentic guy that you know. The people who are actually authentic will will stop and they'll think and they'll be like, huh, well, that's a good question. Well, you know, there was this time, you know, there is this thing about me that I'm that I have a tendency, so they'll they'll they'll be very in, you know, they'll go inside and they'll they'll ask the question, am I authentic? Uh the ones who aren't, they'll just bl blurt it out, yeah, I'm authentic. I'm the most authentic person that you've ever met. And instantly you know, hey, I'm dealing with somebody like that. Well, that surface level, uh it even though these people can be very charismatic and very intelligent, they lack the self-awareness. And uh their answers are very, very surface level. Um, and then the second thing is the arguments are very, very weak. Uh and so you can, you know, there's going back to that example of going back to that example of, let's say, the presentation, well, that person says, Oh, you know, you bombed that last presentation, therefore, you know, you're not great at giving presentations. Uh, and you was and you were to say that, hey, it seems like there's a dig in there. Is that your intention? I mean, instantly they're like, uh, you know, their minds are like, uh uh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's not what I meant. That's not what I meant. Um, what I meant is, you know, uh, you you just don't have the talent. So like it it it you when you start to see that these people have very surface level, uh have horrible self-awareness and very surface level arguments, uh A, you can identify them relatively easily, relatively quickly, and B, you can kind of take back that power that Jay was talking about uh in the last segments. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

I I would say there's three steps to this. And Ray just gave us a couple, then I want to see what you think, Danny. To me, the first step is this white pawn principle. It's like when you're right, it's kind of a superficial relationship, right? It's kind of like, let me make the first move, let me see what I'm dealing with, right? But to your point, it goes deeper, right? The next piece is, and I think this is stage two, narcissists don't like being called out. They don't like being seen, and it kind of takes their power away. So to me, if you basically call them out on their thing, and this would be better for people that you work with, but you're not in a you know romantic relationship with this. Can so the third one is for people you're really close with. But for people you're not that close with, essentially you call them out uh on their stuff, and you basically don't let their manipulation, you know, see the light of day. In other words, I see you, I'm right here with you. That takes their power away from you. Now, they may start still do it on the other thing. It also allows you to begin to show other people their true colors, especially when you're showing up, because you know, people are paying attention. People are, whether they like, we like to think it or not, they're keeping score. So that's stage two. Just call it out and then live your values and then call out whenever you see these people doing what they do. Now, the third part with you know, being like you live with this person, they have controlled you. You've got yourself in this situation very deep, and maybe it's even dangerous for you. That's when you have to start playing a little bit of their game. So you have to see it, be self-aware, know their triggers, and that's when you have to start manipulating and planning kind of behind the scenes to remove yourself from the situation, is the way I see it. So I do see it as this three-step, you know, sort of process here. You know, one, I'll make the first move, let me see what I'm dealing with. Two, I'm gonna start calling you out and matching you. Three, I'm gonna have to start being a little bit of my dark side, Machiavellian type to remove myself from the dangerous situation. But I'm curious, I have not read this book. That's how I would define it. I'm wondering, does her recommendations line up with this, or does she go in a different direction? Have you gotten to the part where she gives true sort of tools to use yet, or does she do that? Not yet.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Not yet. So far, uh she's just been sort of describing these people and how to identify them, and I think that's really important. Uh, you guys know I love I love me some Mark Manson, and he has he has a great hook. I mean, he's like, How do you deal with narcissistic people? You don't. That's his whole recommendation. You don't. You avoid them at all costs. That's literally his only piece of advice in this, which I can I can certainly uh appreciate. I think it gets a little bit more nuanced at things like work or family dynamics or things like that, but I I think that's probably a good point. And I don't know where she's gonna go, so I'll have to report back maybe on a future Sunday conversation. But uh as far as the calling out of what these people are, what they look like, I think it's important to articulate some of this stuff and the impacts that they have on us. And so there's two things that I just wanted to add to the conversation. I thought you guys did a great job just kind of nailing down how to identify these people, and then, okay, now what do we do with these people, even if you are, I have no disagreement there. Uh, but there's two kind of myths that I want to call out just for people listening. One is there's a great experiment called the Bad Apples Experiment, where they purposely put in someone like this into high-performing groups, groups that get along well, they do great work, and they just drop these actors in who put their head on the table, just start yawning every time someone starts talking, interrupts constantly. And what they find is pretty quickly, these high-performing groups, their performance uh reduces about 30 to 40 percent reliably. Every single time it reduces at least 30, 40 percent from tangible output to just group dynamics and things like that. So I just want to say one, these people are not benign in our lives. I think sometimes it feels like, oh, but they're so, they're they add so much value over here. We kind of rationalize and make them fit our lives when they just don't fit. So I like the Bad Apples experiment just to call out that this stuff is not benign. It is harmful to groups, it's harmful to individuals. And the second thing that is more of a myth that I want to call out is that these people are good performers. There's a myth out there that these people are high performers. And they're actually, when you look at the data over time, they're not that good of performers. They did this decade-long study on investment bankers where you think these kind of dark personalities would thrive. They're a little bit more callous, they're higher, they're uh higher risk takers, they are into power dynamics, they're into things that should, in theory, work for them in investment banking. What they find is that these people do about 30% worse on returns over the course of a decade. So it's this myth that these people are valuable in any way. They hurt the group, they hurt the individual. And by the way, no, they don't, the work isn't good. Whatever the work may be, whatever the output may be. And I'm not even talking about actual work work, the work of whatever, a group project at school to do something at the office. These people are actually really bad performers, yet we let them off the hook. It goes back to that thing I said at the beginning, Jade, where these people actually create chaos, and then for some reason we look at them to solve the chaos because they portray strength and conviction and some of these things that we think are associated with good leadership, and it's actually not. Just because we put these people in leadership positions doesn't make them good leaders.

ad Apples Hurt Team Output

SPEAKER_02 32:44

Yeah, uh, before you jump in, Ray, I'll say to me, this makes some sense uh in terms of how we develop. Like if you think about it, again, I don't know percentages, but to me, base level individuals who get stuck in the base level. Let's say they're 10, 20%. I would say they're probably 10, 10% of people, maybe 20% of people. Uh, the cultured level, right, is like the dominant. They're 60, 70% of people. The next level types, and by the way, culture level, these are people who have decrements, not in safety and security, but they want acceptance and belonging. So you can see if they want acceptance and belonging, they go along with anyone who's super confident. So these base level types can pull the culture level types towards them. This is why we see in the research, they not only get power, right? They don't they not only seek power because they're narcissistic, but they get power because they pull the culture level types to them. The next level type, this is the hard part. The next level types are not about acceptance and belonging. They're about authenticity and growth and more freedom and autonomy. And because of that, they're not interested necessarily in leading people. It's that typical thing of like the reluctant leader. Here's the interesting thing that I have seen in uh good leaders, they tend to score fairly high in narcissism. In other words, they're pretty confident, but they also have because just so people don't understand, narcissism is a personality trait. So we all have a degree of narcissism. So good leaders score fairly high in narcissism, they also score pretty high in humility and honesty, and that tempers the narcissistic type. The problem is, though, a lot of them are reluctant leaders, so they don't actually want to step into the thing because their goal sets are a little different. And to me, they need to. And this basically is this idea of stepping in and essentially going, I need to turn my attention to this situation here because this is broken. And that then speaks to their purpose, and then they will turn, but they kind of do it at the sort of last minute. And the thing I'll say about this idea that their results suck, well, of course, their results suck because their goal set isn't to perform good, their goal set is control. And as long as we remember that, control is not something that creates great performance. Control creates control. See what I mean? So their their underlying motivation is not to perform well, and that's how you tell, by the way. You go, are they performing well or are they just a control freak? And then once you ask that question, it becomes pretty clear.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

Ray, how does your rein your rain apply here? I've been thinking about it constantly since we did our first discussion, and I like it a lot, and I I wholeheartedly agree with it. But how do you rain your rain when every 15 minutes, and this is again somewhere where you're kind of interlocked with, call it family, call it work, you're interlocked with it, you're trying to rain your rain, but this motherfucker is under your skin constantly. You just can't, you just can't seem to escape them at all. And I can't focus on raining my rain. Is it just stop complaining and rain your rain? Is that your answer?

SPEAKER_02 35:59

And explain rain your rain for the people who didn't hear that the first time, right? Because I love that concept too.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

Yeah, the concept is you're you're not responsible for getting specific results. You're responsible for raining your rain. For uh the it's built built on this saying that uh the rain produces flowers in the garden and uh thorns in the marshes, that your job is just to rain. And if it lands on fertile ground, then it ultimately will produce flowers. If it rains on the marshes, it will produce thorns. It's not up to you what it produces. Uh it's up to the gods, if you will, um as to what the results are. But essentially you view all of your all results as a gift, whether they are the results you wanted or the results you didn't want, they're all viewed as a gift because the results that you didn't want can be taken on as a as a lesson. Um in my book, it kind of goes back to, you know, your job is to do your job. Your job is to um is to put your heart into the work that you do and ultimately to uh the results are not up to you. There's just too many factors that ultimately lead to an outcome that you have no say in, no say whatsoever. And uh and so in a situation like this, when you've got a narcissist involved, you know, I can I think it kind of goes back to the formula that Jade got that Jade gave. I I would I might add one more uh piece to the formulation that I was gave, which was uh you know, to uh build a plan and then activate that plan in the shadows. That um if you are uh a a great worker and if you are a uh uh somebody who is um who delivers the goods in the work that you do, then uh build your plan to get out from underneath this uh narcissist or this person, and then implement it in the shadows until you're out out of them. Understanding and realizing that in the end, you may not land in any better a place than you are right now, you know, because as you said, the the number of people who kind of uh who are uh in positions of leadership have a tendency to um to have these traits. And so it's distinctly possible. This is why the rain your rain concept is so powerful, is it's distinctly possible that you can implement a plan, get out from underneath this person, and land uh right on the lap of somebody who's exactly the same as the person that you left, or worse. Um, again, it's not up to you what the results are. You you may or you may not end up in a job or a position that is any better than the position that you are in right now. Therefore, it's so vitally important that you control the only thing that you can control, which is your own mind, your own uh and your own actions. And you you make that your philosophy of living. Um because what happens if you do go through all this work, implement the changes, and then land uh on a team with somebody who's as bad or worse, what do you do then? Well, you know, you implement again. You learn from the situation, you say, Oh, look at that. I uh I uh thought I could make my life better by going by doing these things, and I made my life worse. That isn't that interesting. Let's try again, you know?

SPEAKER_02 39:33

Yeah, it's and you know what I think's I think is so critical here. This is probably what if you're listening, this is the hardest thing about being human, because I agree with Ray 100%. I also think the core thing that that next level humans have, and all humans have, but we are meaning-making machines, which is our superpower. Like if there is something that makes us super men and superwomen and superhuman, it's the ability to make meaning. So I, when I'm doing coaching, I would find this person who reigns their reign and does this plan in the shadows, and then ends up in the same situation again. The meaning I would start to make, because patterns tell us a bit about our reign and our work. So, what I would say is now all of a sudden you go, okay, I am the person who shows up in these very difficult situations, and I'm the next level. I'm the one who's working silently for the good behind the scenes. And some of us, the best next level humans, are here to take it on the chin. And ultimately, that's radical responsibility, extreme ownership. To me, there's always someone on these teams who does this work and is doing the good in the darkness. And so to me, I go, I love that idea because I know it seems if you're listening to Ray say this, like, well, that just sounds like miserable and depressing. I go, I'm not so sure that it is, because to me, there's no greater definition of a superhero who does the good in the dark.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

Yeah, the spiritual crisis is when you realize that you are the crisis. Like you are the problem. And uh, you know, if you do that, you you make these changes and you end up right back in a position of uh, you know, underneath somebody who's as bad or worse, then you start to it's what it's what Wayne Dyer used to call the turd that wouldn't flush. It's just circles the bowl, but it won't go down. It's uh it's it's these these it's dating uh the same person in another body that is abusive. It's ending up in this under in the uh underneath somebody in um a job that is as bad as the last person. You have to start realizing, well, maybe it's because I'm I'm trying to make lateral shifts when instead I should be up leveling myself and I'm not doing it. And uh and so yeah, you know, one if if you get a series of these of these uh very frustrating and very uh saddening situations where you end up uh working under somebody who's awful, awful, awful, you have to start asking yourself, well, maybe maybe I'm maybe it's me. Maybe I'm doing something that uh or maybe I'm not doing something that I need to be doing to be up-leveling myself. Uh and and so it's one it's one reason why the work that you do, Danny, is so vital because there are the and this is I think Jade's motivation. Uh and it's my motivation. We look out on the world, we see all these wonderful, amazing people who are being stomped on. And it's so ridiculously frustrating that uh we can't help but try to up-level people in a way that makes it so that they're no longer getting stomped on. And that's why it's so important from the leadership perspective to gather these people up and say, you know what, you think you're a technician, but you're not. You're a leader. You've got the ability to do this, and the world needs you to lead. And uh yeah, I think this discussion kind of just proves that.

ontrol Looks Like Performance

SPEAKER_02 42:52

Let me ask you one more thing, Danny, because this because I can imagine. So, of the three of us, you're actually working in the corporate world with leadership people, right? So you see the consequences of this in Teams. And so I'm just curious for you as you take this stuff and try to translate it into the effectiveness of teams, right? Because in some very real way, you're looking at it like someone hires you as a consultant to improve the performance of the business by improving the performance of the team. You don't get to necessarily have this philosophical discussion. Like real things need to happen so that performance changes. So I want to hear from you in terms of the real world application of this that you see. Where does where does where does this thing work philosophically? And where do you see it falling apart in terms of getting results? Because obviously me and Ray would be like, I'm not in a core war, so I'd be like, You're not happy, leave. Just leave. Start something else, like get out of there. But is this realistic in you know the fact that someone hires you says, Danny, I need you. You're not, we're not firing these people. This is your team. Make them perform better.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

I don't know that it translates. Yeah, this is gonna depress the audience because it depresses every single one of my workshops for sure. This is the most depressing discussion I have in my work at workshops, and I have it every single time. Ashley But it has with the COO of a company relatively recently. He did like something I said around this because that is that I'm on the I'm on board with you guys, and maybe it's because the world we we live in. I'm like, fucking quit, fucking fire them. Like these are these are, and I think it's it's hard. People really want, they always have a reason why, but they don't have more work to do if I fire them. I go, you tell me got a lot of work to do right now. If you're comparing problems, the problem you have right now sounds worse to me. It's sort of the dialogue. Now that's a much more aggressive dialogue. I do better in session, but that's sort of the discussion is they go, I have this problem, and the person they describe is horrible. I've had someone say, uh, they've thrown a binder at my head. I'm just like, this doesn't seem like hard stuff. Like violence seems like a an easy standard, a one or a zero, to be like, yeah, that's an easy one to let go. And they just can't because there's the workload element, but they don't have to take on their workload, or but they're really talented, or but I'm the one who hired them. There's always some sort of reason or rationalization that they always go back on. They go, How do I deal with this person? The answer is the Mark Manson, you don't. They think they can improve them. Think they can change them and they just especially with these types of people throwing a binder at the head that's not a that's not a normal every everyday thing. That should be a pretty easy decision, and I'm finding it's just not with people, which is why I doubled down on that. This stuff is not benign. You're gonna have a problem either way, but this problem is far worse than the problem of, oh, I'll have to hire someone new or find someone new. So it's it's a very difficult thing to address because I do think that's the answer is to either go through this process to let them go, you find something else to do. But uh people are very, very resistant to that.

ain Your Rain And Exit Plans

SPEAKER_02 45:59

You know what's interesting? I was I was thinking, I mean, it's not that I've been immune to these people, but they they they I don't they just don't show up in my world anymore. And I do think there's sort of this energetic that I have because I figured out that when they do show up, they don't last long. And it's also this thing of uh taking, like I just go, voluntary exposure to a toxic human makes you the toxic one. And I realize that in myself. I'm just like, and I and I do, I know when people hear that, they find it insensitive. But I just go, at some point, a voluntary exposure to a toxic human means you're actually the toxic one. Like, think about it. If you're voluntarily exposing yourself to mercury all the time, what's toxic? The mercury or you? Right? So I just go, exposing yourself to this human all the time means you're the toxic one. And that's the first thing that I think Ray pointed us to self-awareness on that, and then no longer tolerating it. And I'll just throw one more thing out at you all because I just want to see what you think, and then we can wrap up. To me, there's this whole thing that that Danny pointed to about results, and you do tend to see these people, they don't get very good results, and they have a history of not getting very good results. The chaos of control usually leads to larger chaos. And I've used this example before. I don't know, I just like to try it off because it might not be a good metaphor, but I like to try these out on people. To me, it's this idea of the lion who's the king of the jungle, who goes, I'm the most powerful, baddest lion, I'm the king of the jungle, I'm gonna just control everybody. And they decide they're gonna destroy the beavers and the bees and everybody else. And what they don't realize, what people don't realize is they end up destroying the whole ecosystem and then they end up destroying themselves in the process. And I would argue, whereas we see this at all levels of leadership. I would argue, and I'm not ashamed to argue, that the current leadership in this country is bordering on that kind of thing. But people also go, well, just wait, it's going to get better. There's lots of excuses being made. By the way, I don't think that we've had good leadership on any side of the aisle. So I'm certainly not, I'm certainly not someone who's making this political. I just go, we've made a mess with these types of leaders, and they seem to get worse every single time. To me, they're all kind of narcissistic and all problematic. It's just that it keeps getting worse and worse and worse. And so I'm just curious for you all, like, what do you what do you do here then with the people who just go, these culture level types, right? I'm starting to think that the culture level types are worse than the base level types. And this is what I want to just ask you about. And here's why. Because they're the ones who are enabling this type of behavior. Like in the end, right? Like, when are we gonna just go? I'm so tired of these narcissistic, you know, people who lie, tell us one thing, do another. Like the signs are written all over the place. We've seen this show over and over and over again, and we don't choose differently. And here's the thing that I want to ask. Here's the question What do what needs to happen for a culture-level type to go? I'm gonna change my mind. I am not gonna deal with this narcissistic human anymore. I've seen enough of the chaos. Like, literally, what needs to happen? And I'm I'm curious from your level, Danny, what have you seen happens in leaderships and teams, right? Like, what is the thing when people finally do go, we're firing this person? What has to happen there? And then I'm curious your side, Ray, you know, in terms of the philosophical thing, when people finally get, what do you think needs to happen for people to wake up to this and actually say no more and fire the person on the team or vote differently or leave the relationship? Like, what is go what I just am curious your thoughts on that before we wrap up.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

Go ahead, Danny.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

Uh I think we touched on it pretty much throughout this entire discussion. I think it it starts, it starts with an army of one. I think human behavior is very socially contagious. We'd like to model one another, and we need someone to model. And I think we can do that in our, you guys know I'm a big fan of like lead from any seat, lead your circle that you're in. There's this organization I work with, and there's in the organization, there's all these different sites. And one site in particular, uh, down actually, I don't I don't name where the site is. I don't, I don't, I don't know what I'm allowed to say. I'm not, but either way, every site that I've worked with, let's call them 10 sites, and nine of these sites have these beliefs that that's not possible. I can't do that, I can't let that person go. Everything on my plate is both urgent and important. And then this one site, there's this guy, and he we did this exercise where I was like, all right, what's urgent, what's important? And I have people put these into boxes, and most people put everything on their to-do list in the both urgent and important box, which is not where we want to spend our time at all. We actually want to spend most of our time on the important things. Like my health is important long term, but uh, you know, my the flu is urgent. That's kind of the difference. And this guy had nothing in his urgent and important box. And I'm sitting in this workshop, and everyone else is arguing why everything else is urgent and important. This guy is just like, no, I just I just delegate. No, I just don't really tolerate that. No, we've just got to let those people go. And then all the people under this guy at this site operate the same exact way. They delegate smoothly, they don't take, they don't take on, they're not working 80-hour weeks like every other site. They're not, they're not playing the victim. They have no problem leaving at 5 p.m. and focusing on the rest of their life, all because this guy does so. So I think it starts with an army of one and there and you you rain your reign, as Ray says. And I do think that is contagious, but I think it's particularly important if you hold any sort of position of power, and whether that's in your family or at work, if you hold a position of power, it's crucial that you kind of stop this shit. Stop enabling these people, stop promoting these people, stop inviting these people to your dinner party. Whatever power you have, use and yield your power in a way that limits these people. That's why I started with the 20%, because there's 80% of us who can stop this shit if we all just kind of get on board and start stopping this shit. So it's sort of my my mission to civilize is to empower the 80% to stop empowering. The 20%. Yeah. That's my issue.

top Enabling At Work

SPEAKER_00 52:45

I am curious. I'm curious. You know, Jade, you said something interesting. You said, you know, you and I basically look at these situations and we say, you know, if it's if it's awful, just get out. And what's interesting is is uh over the last few years, my my uh yeah, I I absolutely used to used to say that, but now, you know, like my wife, she's she's in the corporate world and she's dealt with situations like this all the time. And um and you know, my stance has stayed if it's if it's awful, babe, stay. Because um because you know, I I honestly believe that you're gonna end up um moving into a position where there's no the the likelihood that it's gonna be better in the next job is is almost zero. And so make this about you uh learning to play the game in a way where you can see the game and um and and work from the position of, okay, look, uh, I'm not gonna partake in that. Because I think the solution when Mark Manson says, you know, uh the way you deal with these people is you don't mean that you you quit your job and you go find another job. It means that you don't play the game that they're playing, that you step outside of it and you see it for what it is and you play your game. Because I think the universe is constantly screaming at us to up-level ourselves. And uh all of this discussion about other people is just the universe screaming to us to up-level ourselves. Uh it's not screaming at us to go find another job. It's not screaming at us to go find another partner, even though that may be the outcome where we say, yeah, it's screaming at us to up level in a way that that makes uh makes us not accept this as okay. I heard once that researchers, and this may or may not be true, but I think it drives a good point, even if it isn't, uh researchers went and studied women who were in abusive relationships. And they wanted to answer the question uh why did some people leave and some people stay? And the what what they came, the conclusion they came to was that people will stay uh with somebody only as they will only allow somebody to abuse them as much as they abuse themselves. And then once that person steps over the line, then they leave. And so the solution, if that is in fact true, and it seems true to me, is to up level yourself so that you don't accept any level of abuse. And my wife is great at this, by the way, so I've seen it in in she does not take shit from anybody. And uh she it doesn't matter what job title they have, she does not take shit from anybody. She'll call them out right on a Zoom call. Uh and uh and peep and and like everybody will be will be uh uh uh chatting her from behind. Oh my god, I can't believe you said, but she doesn't take that kind of stuff. So I've seen it firsthand, the impact that it has. Um and then the third thing I would say is that uh, and this goes to you, Danny, when you're when you're coaching these people, um, tell them an awful person never makes anything better. An awful human being never makes anything better. Because in their mind, they're thinking, this is an awful person, and somehow they're making my life better. And that's if you dig into that, I think you'll find that that is not true. Even if their even if their work uh actually adds or or takes some work off of you from one perspective, it's gonna have a horrible effect on the team that's gonna add more work downline that you don't even see. Like you, you would see that you're getting more work from all these other people and you don't understand. How why is that uh when this person is taking work off? It's because they're ruining the dynamics of the team. So an awful person never makes anything better. When you live from that perspective, I think you start to see, you know, I think you start to take action against these types of people sooner and with a whole lot more ease in your mind.

SPEAKER_02 56:54

I love those answers. And I actually, from on the political front, I think it's it's similar, right? Like an awful human as a political leader, let's say, is divisive and dehumanizing and is constantly attacking the other team, right? Now, let's say they do something good, though, right? Because no one's all bad. So there's probably something that they do good. They lower gas prices, they have some little thing that helps a group of people. But that other thing about divisive and dehumanizing, that's contaminating. So the next group of people are gonna do that. And the next group of people, and I think what happens is we get lost, and this is on all levels, whether you're with a romantic partner who's overly bad but does a few good things, whether you're with a toxic boss who's overly bad that does a few good things, or whether you're with a toxic leader for a country who's overly bad but does a few good things, that overly bad thing, I love what Ray says, because I think that thing contaminates. Now, look where we are in the United States, let's say, if you're talking about political, forget the left-right. That's the problem. That's the overly bad thing that we have to, that now we see ourselves as left and right instead of Americans. And that's because each time a leader comes, one of these narcissistic leaders, their manipulative tactic is I'm gonna make things better over here for these people, but I'm gonna spread this divisive dehumanization as the global thing. And look how that's gotten worse and worse and worse and worse. And what I go is I go, I don't think, and maybe you want to respond to this, but I don't think whatever narcissistic leader we have in place, I don't blame them. To me, they're just a symptom of the fact that we at an individual level, which is coming back to basically what you all said, that we at an individual level don't see the destructive, overarching, destructive thing they're doing and instead focus on the little thing that seems good. That's the first thing I'll say. The second thing I'll say is we actually have historically, we have philosophers and we have people and we have evidence historically that actually shows us how to handle this. Henry David Thoreau, civil disobedience is essentially a political way of just saying we will not tolerate toxic, narcissistic leaders. Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, Mahatma Gandhi. These are people who led from agape love, who led and said, no more divisiveness, no more dehumanization. We all suffer. We're not gonna do violence. Follow us here. These are the things that bring everyone else along. So I think we have the evidence. And I think this translates whether you're in a toxic romantic relationship, whether you're in a toxic work environment, or whether you're dealing with toxic leaders at the level of politics. And so I would love to hear your guys' last thoughts on this, and then we can wrap up.

olitics And Divisive Leadership

SPEAKER_01 59:58

I got nothing additional to add there. Okay, there is some evidence that just these types of people will get into certain arenas. So the you almost have to be built this way to get into politics, which makes it, which makes it a little bit clunky. It's uh one of you guys said this is just there's people who just go, yeah, that's they have too much, they have too much kind of self-awareness or humility to be like, yeah, I'm not getting into that arena. That's a cesspool. So I don't I don't have anything to add. I just thought it was an interesting tip is that people are predisposed to get into politics. So it's it's like, of course, that's been displayed.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:33

They seek power, right? Then you got to get these people who don't seek power, they don't want to get into politics. Right. You know?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:40

So where does uh so this whole discussion, and Jade, you're really great at this. So I'm gonna ask you, um, where does this leave us? Like, what is the formula that we leave people with today uh for dealing with um these these this type of situation? First, what is the problem that we are trying to help people solve? And then what is that that kind of three-step solution?

ersonal Standards And Closing

SPEAKER_02 1:01:05

I think the problem is, uh and you both articulated it well as well. I think the problem is that we allow toxic things in our field, and then we make excuses for it. And and the first thing that we do, and this gets philosophical, and I'm sorry, but the first thing we do is we are toxic in certain ways, which is why we allow that toxicity. So the first work is within ourselves. That that's what I think the first thing is. And I know that's philosophical, but it's philosophical across millennia. Like there's not a philosophy or a religion that doesn't say some version of this. So we should pay attention, right? And then the other thing I think is the more practical thing where it's just like once you realize that, you go, what won't I tolerate? And that would be for me, it comes down to this. I will not tolerate any leader who is divisive or dehumanizing. I don't care where they come from, I don't care what team they're on. If they are telling the other side is toxic and the other side is bad and trying to sow division, I will not tolerate. I don't care, Democrat, Republican, I don't care what you are, I will not tolerate that. And the third component is I will be the best human I will be. I will speak from those values and I will hope I can influence. And this goes to what Danny was saying, where it's like, you know, lead where you can lead. You know, just be the best human you can be right here. And I have no problem saying my beliefs on this podcast, saying it in small places around um, you know, uh lunchroom tables or dining room tables or any place I am. But then I also go, I'm going to live that. So I'm not gonna be, you won't hear me say divisive, dehumanizing things about anybody. And I won't tolerate that, and I certainly won't vote for that. I won't have friends for that, I won't have romantic partners who are like that. I just will not have it in my field. And it starts at an individual level where I try to clean it from my own field, then I go, it won't be in my friendships, it won't be in the people I work with, and it certainly won't be in the people I choose to vote for to lead. Right on. Love it. So yeah, it's funny, right? It comes down to that individual thing. You know, don't tolerate toxicity. And at each level, check yourself. So, yeah, I love you, dudes, man. So um, I'm gonna let's go ahead and end it here and um just stay on the line real quick so we can all make sure it loads up. But for all of you joining us, appreciate you, and we'll see you at the next show.