SPEAKER_00: 1:26

How's it going, everybody? Um, I am here with my good friend and colleague, Dr. Catherine Christie. You can find her over on um Substack. You've been showing up on Substack a lot lately, like me. I really love uh that platform. But you know what? I I really wanted you on because I wanted to talk about you and I have been working together now for it's been over a year, and we've been we started working you know pretty closely together. You're doing some coaching inside of my program. I've learned an awful lot from you. And one of the things that I have noticed about you is that everything you seem to touch in the realm of money and career, so I want to focus on this first, seems to, I know, seems to turn to gold, right? You seem to be one of these people, and I've known a couple people like this, not many, that whenever you touch something in the realm of business, it seems to just sort of take off. I've watched you sort of, uh I didn't know you then, but I saw you do this with your brick and mortar business. I saw you do this with, you know, sort of an Airbnb that you turned around sort of really quick. And now I'm seeing you do it sort of with this coaching work. And so I just really wanted, Kathy, people to get a sense of what type of human, how they think, feel, choose, act when they're manifesting things. And of course, I'll set this up to not put you on the spot. You're human. We all have our things that we're good at and things that we're not good at, right? But I want to first focus on, I think, and you might disagree with me, but you're just one of these people that seems to have kind of a magic uh sort of process around career, finance, money. Now, I don't know if you see yourself that way, but I kind of see you that way. So I just kind of want to hear a little bit about your story and oh, how you see this. Do you agree with that? How how do you see um how you do what you do?

SPEAKER_01: 3:29

Well, I definitely appreciate hearing your lens on me. So kind of you. Uh, I would say that my lens has definitely really been shaped a lot uh in the last decade to two decades on what feels aligned for me. And I've really honed in on for me what alignment feels like. And so when I decide to move forward with something, I know that feeling of alignment for me. And I have this level, I've built this along my own personal growth journey, but this level of self-trust with myself and how I want to be authentic and what feels aligned for me. So I feel like that kind of has guided me when I make decisions and choices about things in my life.

SPEAKER_00: 4:27

Okay. This is what I was hoping you were gonna say. I didn't know how how, you know, you and I, you know, we talk and we text back and forth, but I didn't, I was hoping you'd go there because this is this actually is how I see it and what I want to talk to you about. And and here's the interesting thing about this. Uh, let's just me and you be honest. I think when most people hear this, maybe you disagree with me, but I hear when most people hear alignment, it feels to them because they're used to like reading books about tiny habits, and they're used to like, you know, um listen to, you know, these highfalutin podcasts on, you know, um neuroscience and all this science-y-based stuff, you know, tiny habits, habits, behaviors, you know, all this kind of stuff. And then we turn around and go, alignment, right? And this is part of the thing that um I have a lot to say on this as well, but this is part of the thing that I think most people in self-development don't quite understand. It's sort of like a soft science or not talked about, but I have certainly come around to going, I could tell my patients and my clients all of the things to do, and they don't do it. And research shows that 80 to 90 percent failure rates, depending on the domain you're talking about. If we're talking about relationships, 60% people fail to get better relationships when they want to. If we're talking about weight loss, it's like 90 plus percent. If we're talking about finance, it's like 80%. Obviously, tiny habits and biohacks and all the things are not working for most of the people most of the time. So now all of a sudden we have Kathy saying, well, part of it is alignment. I want to know what exactly that means and how does someone get in alignment? And I want to see for you and I to sort of see if we can play with this concept to help people understand what that actually might mean. What does it even mean when you know Kathy's in alignment? And and then let's talk about how you get in alignment.

SPEAKER_01: 6:34

That's a very good question, Jade, because it's some of it for me is I just know. And I can't explain that piece of it. I just know. Um, but I do think the umbrella to that is this level of trust that I have within myself. Um, trust within myself and trust that I'm going to be guided to where I need to be in life. You know, when you talk about we're all playing the human game, you know, your words, we're we're playing the human game. I have this level of trust that as things happen in my life, and it's not like, it's not like I'm playing the board game of life and I'm landing on all the good spots, like all these amazing things. I'm landing on tough situations in life too. And it's going through the process of the good and the the perhaps less than ideal, that I'm amplifying uh my level of trust in myself and trust that I'm headed in the right direction in life.

SPEAKER_00: 7:34

Okay, so that that I think is the first step. And I just I like to go backwards, right? Because I say, let's talk about alignment. You bring up self-trust, and then I go, okay, so if I'm hearing you correctly, it's like, well, I trust the direction somehow, and then that direction I get aligned with. And I'm and what I want to know is, and this is how me and you both do this, right? So, like, you know, Kathy and I work together as coaches, and we use very similar uh methods. Um, and so for me, I go, self-trust, surely along the way, right? Somewhere along the way, you didn't always feel self-trust, or did you, right? And and so I want to know, I go back and go, have you always felt self-trust? And if not, what happened or what were the happenings that seem to have gotten you um to that? And I'll I'll just add an addendum to that to help with the conversation. From my perspective, the way I look at it is that there's this level, people talk about competence and confidence, right? And you hear this a lot in the coaching world the competence, confidence loop. You you you you learn something, you gain some confidence, you have some success, you gain some confidence, which then gives you more confidence, you fail, you figure some things out, you get some competence and confidence, you get this spiral loop up. I am wondering, is that how you see it, or did self-trust come another way? Have you know, you've just always been, look, I've just always intuitively understood the direction I need to go, or has it been like, well, I got my ass beat in certain ways and figured some things out that then helped? I'm just curious in terms of your story.

SPEAKER_01: 9:20

I'm gonna answer D, all of the above, because yes, I have been handed some life lessons for sure. And overcoming those has in fact increased my confidence in my competence. Um, but also there has been aspects of my journey that, like I said, I can't explain it, just feels right. It's just this feeling of that is right. Uh so different career paths I've taken, it's been this just feels right. Um, as I've grown my skills in those career paths, um, I've been handed lessons. And from overcoming those, I've built, like you said, the confidence-confidence loop to build some of that self-trust as well. But it's it's interesting. Early on in my career in in one of my brick and mortar, I had a client, very intuitive client, and I was um working with her, and she and she said to me, she, she said, um, you're you've been given a gift, and you don't know yet just the extent of the gift you've been given, but you will. And she was she was right. Like as I've gone through my career, I reflect back on her words, and I'm like, she was absolutely right. Um, I definitely believe I was given a gift to serve and help people uh in in my little corner of the world, which looks a lot like healing and growth. And I've um developed my trust in that, um, which has definitely guided the choices I've made. And I it I feel so much um satisfaction, happiness, like being in the career path that I am. I just it it just feels right for me. And I am grateful that I get to do what I do every day. And and um going into your program, into the next level human program, which has been, if you can believe this, Jade, like almost two years ago now. I started your program.

SPEAKER_00: 11:19

And that's right. I I was thinking we surely we know each other longer than here.

SPEAKER_01: 11:25

And it absolutely enhanced my knowledge. And I would say, as we explored your concepts on identity and on belief and on stories and on misguided unconscious decisions and on perception, it has beautifully enhanced the work that I'm doing, not just in my personal life, but in my professional life too. And to kind of give you a couple examples of that, like for example, professionally, I can have two different people with the same situation, but completely different experiences with it based on how they see it, what they believe about it, and how they respond to it. And, you know, healing and growth, as you know, is not a one size fits all approach. So how somebody sees themselves, what they believe, and how they respond moment to moment affects everything that happens thereafter. And that's what I think is so beautiful about the work that you're doing, about the, you know, the human architect program. We get the opportunity to be a part of somebody's journey in such a beautiful way. And like personally, when I started with you two years ago, it was with a very professional intention. I wanted to expand my skill set, deepen how I worked with people. And little did I know, roughly three to four months into that program, two years ago, I, you know, had a very personal death very close to me. And it was such a profound level of grief that I've never experienced before, never experienced before. And so the theories and the skills and the techniques you were teaching us shifted from theory for me into a very personal lived experience. So I was able to see through that, applying your techniques in the field deal heel process, I was able to see ex just how beautifully they work. And I would say it completely changed my life. You talk about the four jobs, you know, our job in our health, our job in our relationships, our job in our career finance, our job in our personal development or our purpose or our passion. And I would say going through, you know, being a part of Next Level Human for the last couple of years has just so beautifully expanded my lens in all of those areas, in all of those areas. So I'm just very grateful for the work that you do, the time and the dedication. And I'm gonna plug you for a minute. I know you didn't, and I'm gonna say Jade didn't ask me to do this. So I'm doing this because I have been so impacted by his program that I want to share this. But Jade, he is a very um generous, very kind, uh, very supportive next level human being. And when you go through his program, you get to experience those aspects of him. And it's like I'm just so grateful that I've been able, and your sister Jody is so amazing too. I've been, I'm just so grateful that I I get I've gotten the opportunity to be a part of the next level human family and and be along for the ride and this this impact we're that you're trying to make in the world. So thank you so much, Chase.

SPEAKER_00: 14:29

Yeah, and you know, well, you know what? Thank you so much because I feel equally grateful um for having you as a peer and a colleague and having individuals like you come into this program. And now Kathy has essentially, she actually comes to me now and has helped with tweaking some of the sales process and has a lot to do with helping some of the new people who come in. And it's really interesting, right? Because I I wanna I want to say two things uh that I noticed. One thing I just want to point out to everybody um on this topic. There's, you know, we started with alignment, then we went to trust, and then you started talking about belief, which is is I think really critical because what then comes after that is story. And I want to get to that in terms of your story. Like you said, something along the lines of I just simply believe something that then reinforces the way I uh interact with the world. And then you mentioned, and this is the part that I think is really hard for people, right? Because what happens is we might think we have a belief, but then we get hit with really hard stuff, right? So here you are coming into a program like this, having all your skill sets and having a great deal of success anyway, you know, in your own right, coming into this with, you know, sort of this belief structure, but then, you know, doing some of this work, and then something um happens that would be a setback, you know, setback for most people. But you talk about this, and I'm and I want to see, because I think when we hear these stories, we skip past the potential um belief structure that was there or the stories you had to tell yourself to get through these difficult times. So then you go through this thing, and you're talking about this idea, and this then I applied many of the things I already knew and some of the things that I bring forward, you know, sort of in this work. And, you know, obviously, these kind of things that we go through as humans, like to be human is to suffer, and we have difficulty. But, and I'm I'm I'm I'm gonna be sensitive here just for other people listening, because I know you get it, but sometimes that suffering can be the greatest source of understanding and meaning. Sometimes our greatest pains can um be deeply purposeful, or sometimes as coaches, and this is one of the things we do in the next level human work, we simply go through things so that we can understand at a deeper level what other people are going through and relate um, you know, uh to them. So, all of that to kind of say, as I listen to you as somebody who, you know, I go, you just seem to have the ability to touch certain things, especially in the realm of finance and business, and just make magic happen. But now, as I'm listening to you, it's like, oh, this is really interesting because if you look at the thread of you, there's a tremendous amount of gratitude, a tremendous amount of I went through an incredibly difficult time. But I also have this belief that this is what I'm meant to do. I'm lucky to do it. And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but is it it almost as is as if you see the world as these things that you're going through as fuel for teaching or fuel for insight or ways to give back. And I just want to hear that perspective. Am I wrong in that? Am I missing something? You know, how do you see it? Because I don't know how you go through what you went through and um you know, make it through so generously and beautifully and happily. And, you know, a lot of people don't. A lot of people come out of that and they become the villain, the hurt person who hurts people, or the victim, the hurt person who continues to hurt themselves by reliving it. You just seem to not, you know, play those games.

SPEAKER_01: 18:25

Well, I would say to kind of back up to when you first started the next level human program, uh, opened it up for people to learn your techniques. I remember doing that that call with you, because you were doing calls with us, um, deciding who you were gonna let into the program, and you were only letting in about 10 to 12 people at that time into the program. So you were in in essence interviewing all of us. And I so to to kind of explain, like I just had this feeling when I saw your email inviting us to this program. I had this feeling of like, yes, yes. And then I spoke with you uh over video, over Zoom, and there was no question for me. Uh, I was like, yep, this feels so aligned for me. This feels so aligned, like the right path. I don't know exactly how I built that level of self-trust within myself, except to say that on some levels, it was there from childhood. And I don't know exactly how the belief that I could do anything I want to do. Like I can do anything I want. I don't know where that came from. It just that has been a little bit of a level of belief for me that if I want something, I can do it, I can accomplish it. You know, I just have to figure out how. Um, so that level was it within me of that. And then of course, through my career and personal life, during going through different experiences, good highs, lows, indifferent. I developed more trust with myself and more like, okay, everything that's happening within my life, if I reflect back at the time, it might not, some situations might not feel the best at the time. But once I get past it, I can reflect back and be like, okay, if I didn't go through that, I wouldn't have gotten here. If I didn't go through that, I wouldn't have gotten have gotten there. So it's like it's leading me into all these different paths. And so when I heard about your program, when I saw your email a couple of years ago, uh, I just knew something pinged me. And I just knew like this, this is a path I need to go. And so we got on the call and I was like, yep. And I, you know, I enrolled on like right away, I think I enrolled. And um I can reflect back on what happened to me that first year with that death. And it makes sense that, like, okay, the timing of this, your I had I had a belief and a trust in what you were telling us. Like I trusted what you were telling us. These skills, these techniques are gonna help you feel deal, heal. And I believed that. So I just was implementing them and I was doing the work. And you know, it's in the process of me going through that, feel deal, heal that year. Um, going through that allowed me to experience it. Like I said, experience it and know, like, okay, this works, but it it started with the trust. Like you ex the way you taught us things, it made sense to me. The science made sense. Um, I believe. You, I trusted, I had a trust in the work and I was just applying it. Like you talk about uh also the aspect of what we do is you talk about taking action, taking steps. And I was doing that. I even even though days were really, really hard for me that year going through the grief, and I was doing the deep session and I was doing the journaling, I was doing these techniques, even though some days was so hard and and I was just crying, crying, crying, crying, crying, I still held on to the trust and the belief that if this is the process, I need to do this and I'll get to the other side of it. And so I think that's also probably a mindset or a belief that I've always had. Like if I do these steps, if it's if it's X, Y, Z to get to here and I do those, I'm trusting that I do those and I will get there. And so that was that's probably another aspect for me too.

SPEAKER_00: 22:19

Yeah, you know, my my perspective on that is when we you and I first talk and that whole group, you know, it's really interesting. The first year was 13 people, and the second year was 13 people. It's really interesting. But now we're not really doing that interview process anymore. So we're opening up the program to everyone else. But I also, when you and I first talked, I think we talked about it at the time, and and this was the case with all those initial um sort of certification uh, you know, um what we call them candidates. Uh you had a lot of the next level human mindset uh already there. And and that story of like, I can do uh whatever I want to do. And here's what I want to point out to to people listening to this. And correct me if I'm wrong here, Kathy, but here's one of the things I've I learned about Kathy. Kathy did not have, you know, she's not without suffering. You know, she had uh she was left out of a lot of things when she was a kid. She has mud around, you know, um, some of her family stuff. She's got a lot, and when I say mud, we that's a term that Kathy and I use misguided unconscious decisions. It's this idea that we formulate belief structures when we're young, when we don't have the maturity and the wisdom that can keep us stuck. Like things like I'm not safe and I'm not worthy. And, you know, Kathy had a lot of this, like we all do, but somehow along the way, uh, you had this deeper belief structure that was there. And to me, I think you and I both know now with working with clients, that's what this work has to do. You know, we don't always necessarily know where we got it or how to give it to our clients, but you mentioned this process feel, deal, heal, that I do want people to sort of understand a little bit, because this is one of those tangible things that not only will release the old suffering points, the mud that Kathy, myself, and all of you listening suffer from simply by being human, but it also, when when you go through something very difficult, it also allows you to not create mud, not to create um get stuck in the mud with these new processes. In other words, what our work does is we essentially go, look, you have these mindsets and these beliefs and these stories about who you are and how the world works that are keeping you stuck. We got to go back and unwind those. Also, though, when you learn these skills, these this field deal heal process, it allows you to, when you go through the breakup, to actually get through it and not have it haunt you for 20 years. When you go through the financial crisis, it allows you to get through it and not have it haunt you. When you go through, you know, the health-related stuff, it allows you to get through it and not have it, you know, basically haunt you. And so let's briefly talk about that because I do wonder if this is part of the process, but it sounds like what you're saying is learning that process was what helped you get through a very difficult time. And let's be clear, it's not that it's not difficult. We humans will suffer. The idea is will we have um post-suffering distress disorder? So, not post-traumatic stress disorder, but post-suffering, or maybe what we might say, Kathy and I might say, you don't have trauma. What you've really got is drama. The struggle happens in the beginning, it's not fun, but oftentimes we continue the pain because we tell a story that keeps us stuck. And so why don't we just walk through that really quickly? And I want to know how this process, you know, sort of worked for you. First, I just want to know do you feel like when in hindsight, you were like, oh, I was using some of these stuff in my younger days, or do you feel like, oh, once you learn this stuff, you were like, this freed me and allowed me to break some of those patterns and also allow me to get through this tragic loss you had?

SPEAKER_01: 26:18

Well, I do think that uh through the course of my career, of course, I've I had heard of um stories and beliefs and inner child, some of the things that you talk about in the program. I've heard of those things and I've heard about how we can uh develop some of our stories, our beliefs, our subconscious loops from childhood. So I understood that that happens, but going through your program, it expanded my knowledge and skill set on okay, so if we all have those things and we we can identify that some of those things are not serving me well in my life anymore, they might have served me well back then when I needed some of that stuff, but they may not serve me as well now. Um, how do I actually change that? And so I think also one thing about me too is I have the belief, desire, whatever you want to call it, to um pause and ask myself in a difficult situation, what are my choices right now? I can choose to stay here and continue to suffer in this. That's one choice I have. What where's that going to lead me if I choose that? Um, I can choose to get through, try to work through the painful parts of this, the feel parts, the feel deal parts, and heal it so that um it's no longer affecting me in the same way anymore. And I can learn and grow from it and move on from there. Or I can, you know, choose to stay um, I guess uh I can choose to suppress it and stay kind of stuck because if I suppress it, it's going to still be there and it's gonna pop up occasionally for me and not really getting rid of it. I'm temporarily getting rid of it for a moment or a day or a week or a month, but it's gonna come back up. So for me myself, I've just kind of identified for myself I'm trying to become the best version of a human being that I possibly can as I'm involved as I evolve and I'm perfectly imperfect. Some days I'm better at it, some days I'm not. But I know that my choices that I don't want to stay stuck in things that don't serve me for my most authentic, aligned, higher good self. So I I pause and I look at a situation like, okay, what are my choices here and what's the impact if I make this choice or that choice or that choice and um make a decision from there?

SPEAKER_00: 28:52

Yeah. Yeah. So this is really interesting. And so I I want to walk people through this real quick, and then you can kind of tell me how this sort of worked for you. The way I see this, you know, obviously we remember things at rhyme, hence the feel, deal, heal process. And what I feel like you're talking about right there is the deal phase, right? It's like this idea of like, what are the choices and what are the coping mechanisms and what are the actions I can kind of take, right? And this is where most people sort of sit. It's about as far as they can typically go. But I also would say most people actually don't do that. What they do is they just kind of freeze. So they distract, deny, whimper, whine, blame, complain, attack, avoid. These are all the coping mechanisms that we do in the deal phase, right? But you're right, there is a choice that needs to be made to see here are my coping patterns, and are they actually solving the problem? But prior to that comes the subconscious work, which is feeling and dealing with the emotion, right? And so there's the feel that starts to bleed into the deal. So I want to talk about that just briefly. The feel part, none of us ever learn. And so Kathy and I would use an example. We tend to use the example of you cut your thumb. So if I'm hanging out with all of you in the kitchen and Kathy and I are sitting here cutting vegetables, and my knife slips and cuts my finger. The very first thing I do is stop and pay attention. Why do I stop and pay attention? Because I feel it, right? Without the feeling, I don't stop. Now, the next thing I do is I deal with it. And the dealing part is how deep is it? How much of a mess did I make? Do I need stitches? Do I need to go get the stitches? That kind of thing. Those are the choices piece. But when it comes to emotional wounds, the feeling place is to go, okay, I have an emotional response. I'm suffering, I have grief, I have betrayal, I have whatever I have. We have to go in the body and feel it. In the same way a knife cuts a particular area of our thumb, the feeling phase, and no one ever teaches us humans to do this, is to go into the body and go, oh, I'm feeling X, anger, sadness, whatever it is, and I'm feeling it here in my heart, my throat, my stomach, wherever it is. And then the subconscious mind, as Kathy and I know, does not think in logic and intellect, it thinks in metaphor and symbols. So then you go, is there a symbol associated with this? You know, is there like, you know, a lion, you know, that pops up, or the symbol of, you know, mud or tar or whatever that symbol might be. And that's the feeling phase. And people don't do that. We can name it, we can describe it, we can find it in the body, and we can apply these aspects to it. And when we do that, what happens with the subconscious, it bleeds into better choices. It bleeds into the deal phase. And then the heal phase after that, those choices, is to basically go, how do I finally heal? Well, if it's a cut finger, what we're going to do is what? We're going to put ointment on it, we're going to do all that stuff, but that's actually not the healing phase. That's still the deal phase. The healing phase is when we go, oh, next time Kathy and I are cutting vegetables, we go, I remember I have a scar right here on my finger. I remember last time I cut my finger, and I should learn to be careful and not be talking to Kathy while I'm cutting my vegetables. Or maybe in the interim, I went out to YouTube and learned how to chop vegetables better. In other words, I learned a lesson. And then maybe the real healing turns into when we turn it into purpose, we go, maybe I'll teach other people and remind them not to, you know, do this. And this is the process that Kathy and I teach. And so it's really interesting what you're saying, Kathy, is you have a natural tendency to be really good at dealing. And I'm just curious. So, you know, maybe adding on this feel phase and this heal phase, or maybe you always kind of linked them together, but just didn't have the words for them. I don't know. How do you see it?

SPEAKER_01: 33:00

Well, I think I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this because as you're talking about through the field, deal, heal phase, I'm like, yes, you're right. A lot of people can get to the deal aspect of something and logic it and say, okay, I understand X, Y, Z. Okay. Because I understand it, good. Mark, you know, check the box. I'm good. I understand it now. I learned my lesson. Okay. But there's this aspect of the feel phase. And I certainly did my fair share of bypassing that feel phase that you're referring to. And I think that's one of the beautiful blessings of your program for me is it allowed me to understand that I can't bypass that feeling phase and the techniques that you teach in that feeling phase. So going back, because I think, and I'm so curious to hear your thoughts on this because you've you've done such a deep dive on research and study into things like this. But I think inherently when you talk about the cut finger analogy, you know, we we physically cut our finger and we're like, okay, I know not to do that again. That hurt. I am not doing that again. That hurt. I'm not gonna experience that pain again. But when we're talking about wounds, like emotional wounds, um we do it again and again. I think we can be so protective, like we can logic it and say, okay, I understand how I got here. I get this, okay, not gonna do that again. Uh, but to have to go back and actually feel it to heal it, uh, we can come up to so many barriers, perhaps. Maybe there's a better word for it, because inherently our mind, our body says, no, we we know that pain. Like, why do you want to do that pain again? Like, why do we want to go through that? What? Like, that's no, no, no, no. We're not doing that pain again. But it is a necessary step in order to clear the mud, the misguided unconscious decisions to clear that so that we don't have to keep experiencing that pain again. Cause as you know, you're the teacher. Like, as you know, if we don't clear that pain, if we don't go back and revisit it and actually feel it, even though it's going to hurt, even though we know it's going to hurt, if we don't go back and do that, at some point, in some way, shape, or form, we're gonna re probably relive that again. So I'm curious to hear.

SPEAKER_00: 35:24

If we don't revisit it, it will revisit us.

SPEAKER_01: 35:26

Yes. Yes. But we we I we seem to have this aspect of us as humans that's so protective that even though we can logic a situation and say, okay, I get it, I understand the lesson. It's so protective in that, like, it doesn't want us almost as if it's like there's a resistance there on some levels of, well, but you want to go back and actually feel that. Like, what? But we have to. But I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_00: 35:55

Yeah, no, I agree completely. And it's really interesting having this discussion with you, right? Because you and I have talked about this, where uh in romantically, right, we you and I switch roles where sometimes you can struggle in the romantic realm and I don't. But then in the financial realm, you don't tend to struggle in that realm, but I might. So this is the first thing I might say to everybody, right? Where it's like uh we all have our different lanes that we tend to do feel, deal, heal better in. I struggle a little bit in feeling what money's about for me, dealing with what money's about for me, and healing some of my money patterns. Whereas Kathy tends to be pretty good in that area. Uh, I think you're great in romance too, but I think, you know, in that area, because we've coached each other, Kathy, a little bit with me with some of my business patterns and me with some of her romantic patterns, it's different. So that's the first thing that I would say. The next thing I would say is that we humans don't get ever taught this. And so this is why yours and my work is so powerful. Because essentially what we're doing is we're taking people back to school and going, emotional school, really. We're saying, look, here's what you were never taught about emotions, right? I mean, I know it's cliche, but in some shape or form, most all of us were told either feel everything or don't feel anything. It seems that our society splits it like this. You see these kids where the parents are completely like, whatever you feel is fine, and whenever you feel it is fine, and however you do it is fine. And then there's other uh, you know, sort of things where it's like don't feel anything. If you cry, so help me God, kind of thing, right? So to me, I go, what we actually need, and what you and I do is take people back and we go, look, emotional regulation, emotional appropriateness, emotional vulnerability, right? Emotional integrity, emotional alchemy. What we're doing is we're coming back and saying, no, you don't get to feel every feeling and express it all the time. But no, you can't actually suppress it either. And you have to learn these steps of emotional regulation, emotional appropriateness. Think about when we were kids, right? To some degree, you couldn't just freak out every chance you got if you had a good parent. They were like, this is not the appropriate time. You need to regulate. However, for some people, that went as far as suppression, right? And then we have to teach people, well, do you even know what you're feeling? What's what are you feeling, Jade, when you're a kid? You know, all I knew was anger because I couldn't express sadness. In my family, it was okay to express anger because I saw my mom and dad express anger, but I didn't see them expressing sadness as much. And so this is the process. And so the way I see it is what we're doing is we're taking people back and teaching them the A, B, Cs of emotional alchemy. Emotional alchemy would be the top mastery skill, but that's the feel phase. The feel phase is all about emotional maturity and emotional mastery. And very, very, very few humans have ever been taught that work. Then you can get into deal, and then you can begin to get into heal. And so that's why most of yours and my work centers around those emotional needs. I have a theory that I uh, you know, um, this is one of the reasons why I always love talking to you about this. I have a theory that around, for some reason, around money, your money story or whatever happened with you around business and money, you've mastered some of the all the emotional containers around money. And not maybe not all of them, but most of them, better than I have, right? Like somehow you get it. You get appropriateness, regulation, integrity, vulnerability, alchemy with money, right? And that's why you're free to make clear choices. And that's why I think you can be in alignment to go back to what we started this conversation with and trust because you've developed that skill set. When someone is romantically not able to do that, it's because they didn't master those elements. That's why they can't make choices. That's why they're either too avoidant or too anxious, or they don't say the right thing, or they're off in social settings. Same with health, right? All of this. So to me, I go, that's the most important element. That's the foundation. So it's interesting though, right, with me and you, because now that I'm sitting here talking with you about, I'm like, oh, you know, the it's not like I didn't suffer in the romantic realm. It's just that, matter of fact, I suffered perhaps mostly in the romantic realm in very big, disappointing ways to myself, which helped me to figure it out. And I'm wondering, did you have any early on in business? And you're probably gonna be like, no, Jade, but like, did you have any really big failures early on that made you figure it out? Or did your family, or did was there like I'm just curious, like what about you just made you seem to be able to get it? You're probably gonna say, I really don't get the money thing, Jade, as much as I think you do. But to me, you to me, you're you know, like if I've met anyone, very few people in my life, you're like might as touch when it comes to your business stuff. It seems everything seems to work.

SPEAKER_01: 41:01

Well, I did grow up in a family of entrepreneurs, so I think that helps.

SPEAKER_00: 41:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 41:07

I saw their ups and downs. Um, and I saw them persevere in in their um businesses. Definitely that probably early on, we talk about child lens, certainly contributed to my lens when it comes to. Business and finance today. To go to your point about romance. Like as we're talking, I can see like, okay, so after I got divorced, I s I stayed alone for about seven years. So I didn't get that experience of like like you're talking about. I didn't, I didn't put myself in the situation to experience the the lessons I needed to learn there necessarily right after my divorce. And, you know, until I started getting back into the dating world, you know, a few few years back. So, you know, where you you perhaps were like you went into that experience and you learned your lessons and and I did early on with business and and even with health. Health is a strong human job. I feel like I'm strong in my health. I take very good hair, very good care of myself and um all that and personal development. I've always been naturally drawn to growth and healing. So I feel like I'm good in like several areas of the of our four main jobs. But as you're speaking, Yeah, you should.

SPEAKER_00: 42:25

I should really brag on you because you should, I should brag on you because you should tell people how old you are. Every time you tell me how old, you're like, I'm not gonna tell, but you look nothing like your age, right? It's like it's insane uh to me. And so, like, yeah, it's like it does seem like we all have, I see these jobs like a three-legged stool, right? It's like you have it on those stools that they're never quite balanced. It seems like every human, you seem you you do really good in health, you do really good in wealth. I think you do like the this last conversation you and I had about like some of your romantic stuff, I was just like, oh my God, that's so on point. But that might be the one leg that's short on you. Whereas the money thing might be the one leg that's a little short on me. I think we all we all kind of have that.

SPEAKER_01: 43:06

But I do think it's really interesting what you've got enough experience on the romance side to get the leg to fully grow there on that stool. But I'm I'm getting that.

SPEAKER_00: 43:16

Yeah, and I and honestly, the the last, you know, just so all of you know who are listening in on this conversation, we uh Kathy has become a very good friend of mine, and we coach, we coach each other now, and this is what's really cool. A lot of us in that first cohort of individuals uh sort of do that. And so we do tend to, she does tend to remind me things about business and money and that kind of stuff. And I do tend to remind her about the romantic stuff, but I also think you're uh pretty amazing uh in that realm as well. And I do think, you know, uh one of the things you and I talk about, I just want to say this about coaching and of course the program we run at Next Level Human, the best coaches, I think, are actually not people who have all legs solid, right? Like, and just have it all figured out. The best coaches are people who have struggled mightily and or are struggling mightily in a particular area. And then people tend to find them for that. So I like with Kathy, I would not be surprised if people find her for business and find her for the romantic stuff, right? Like she, because she can speak to both of those from very different uh kind of places. I do want, before we wrap up, because we're right around 45 minutes here, um, but I do want to talk briefly with you about this uh process that we have discussed, because in business, this is really interesting about this. Like uh me and our group at Next Level Human, when people come into Next Level Human uh as new cohorts for training, one of the things that we want to have happen is for them to go ahead and launch their coaching programs right away. When you become a human architect or certify with next level human, one of the things that we want to have happen is we want to teach you the methods fairly quickly and then have you launch this new type of doing coaching. And so super funny because I'm telling all, I'm on a call with all of the clients, of course this is true of you, Kathy, but I'm on the call with everyone. I'm showing them, look, this is how you want to launch this program. You want to set up your kind of compound coaching, which is our version of group coaching. It's really not group coaching, but it's it's a form of that. Um, these story circles in this different way, and you want to go ahead and launch this before the new year. So Kathy messaged me and goes, Jade, I've got 17 people in that program. And I'm like, what? I don't even have any more people in my program yet, you know, in terms of the launch. And I'm curious, right? Because I think what happens is there's two things here. One, you just learned that model. Now you learned the methods, but you had just learned that particular model very recently. Two years ago, you started learning the methods, but this is a new model we've launched, right? And you immediately took that and went boom and ran with it and knew exactly what to do with it and crushed. And what I want to understand is tell me, you know, and of course, we don't have to talk numbers, it's kind of irrelevant from that perspective, but tell me how all of a sudden you take a new model like that, just business-wise, and uh put it together and maybe just tell people how that process worked for you and how it's working for you.

SPEAKER_01: 46:23

Well, I think there's multiple layers to that. First of all, I think I've had so much experience. When you talk about the competence-confidence loop, I've had so much experience in my brick and mortar business, uh bringing out new services and things like that. So I didn't have any fear, uh, an underlying fear about putting something together and putting it out there. Um, I've put things out there that have done better than other things. So I've gone through the experience of, okay, that didn't work out as well as I thought, but it's okay. Um, so I've gone through the experience of those things in my brick and mortar. So that aspect of it, putting something together and putting it out there, I think I've I've overcome some of the fear with that type of thing through my experience in entrepreneurship. Um, and then when we talk about something feeling aligned for me, and like and again, I will say there's an aspect of this that I don't fully understand myself. I just know what I feel. So I remember when I messaged you, I said, I didn't plan to launch this right now, but over the last week, I've just been feeling like I need to do this. I can't explain it, but I need to do it. So I just I I've been working on it and I just decided to put it out there. And I woke up the next morning and had these people signed up, you know, for it. I started with, I started with the people that I've already had relationships with. So my client base and my brick and mortar and some of my family and friends. I started a soft launch, if you want to call it, with those people before I ever put it out there to other people or other professionals I've worked with in my um brick and mortar uh career. So I launched it there and I remember messaging you like, oh my gosh, I woke up, I launched it late last night. Woke up and there's people signed up, Jay. Now, you know, like so it's so it that's the best way I can explain it is I, you know, I think I think from my lens, sometimes people can let fear stop them. Um, they can let some aspect of fear stop them. And that's what's beautiful about the work we do is we would call that mud. Um, and so us as human architects can come in and help somebody and say, okay, where is we can die we can help them dive deeper into the fear and say, okay, what is really happening here? Let's look at this, let's feel it, let's deal with it, let's heal it. So then it stops being the roadblock to where you want to be. And so I think I don't know if that answers your question, but that's good for me.

SPEAKER_00: 48:57

Yeah. I mean, what I'm what I'm hearing is a couple things. What I'm hearing is reps, right? Like repetitions. I've done I, you know, I have some competence and confidence because of the reps. I also heard, look, I had some reps because, you know, my family had some reps prior. So even as a little girl, probably, you were picking up some of these aspects, you know, absorbing some of their feel, deal, heal process. By the way, it didn't have to be that way, right? Because it could have also gone the other way. We absorb either way. Healthy relationship, we might absorb some of that from our parents. Unhealthy relationship, we might absorb some of that from our parents. A family that is good with finances, we might absorb some of that. Family that's not so good with finance, we may absorb some of that. And so that's the first thing that I heard. And then also this idea, I love what you said about you know, the fear is we can extinguish, and this is what people don't understand. We can extinguish a lot of the fear when we start to go, it is not fear in the way you think about it, it is mud. And it's there because you never learn to feel, and that's why the mud's cemented and is keeping you stuck. I think it's so well said the way you said that, because then that our work, we essentially say, if you can break that mud, you actually free yourself up in a different way. You know that saying, um, what do they say? They say with fear, they call it false expectations appearing real. I don't like that at all because I go, you know what? Fear is very real for a lot of people. I see it more as find, engage, and resolve, which is what you're saying, to me, clear the mud. So, and you and you don't have to go, I'm afraid of whatever I'm afraid of. You have to just go back and be like, what has happened to me to make me feel these particular ways? And in dissolving that feeling state and letting it move, you oftentimes clear some of the fear state. And so that's what I hear you saying, where you're like, I don't have a lot of that, so I can just launch. And then, you know, from my perspective, you had this really nice, and what I, you know, selfishly want you know, people to see who come on board with us is to go, this is an individual who launched exactly this model, did not know this model previously, learned this model, and because of who she is, put it into um, you know, and it worked. And people are like, yes, please. Now, some of that absolutely has to do with you know relationships you've built and all the things that you built, but that's the point. This stuff works, and it is tied to the underlying mud, the field deal heel component of this, and the ability to, you know, break patterns in health, in wealth, you know, in finance and in purpose. It's just in this case, it's in the wealth category, which you seem to figure it out. And I think we've unlocked, and I'll just sum it up here and then see to add, but I think we've unlocked a little bit about how people can think about this with all four of these jobs, but especially with finance from learning from Kathy. It seems to me that on some level there's a belief structure that Kathy has. Some of it you might say, well, isn't it just lucky she had parents and this and that, but she still had to make choices. I know people who come up with silver spoons and people who and and they just burn all their money, they're not so smart about it. So they write different stories. Whatever she did, she integrated that in the correct way to get the results that she wanted to get. And so there is a belief structure that has to happen. And then what's really interesting about you is you go, and then from there, because we're talking about feeling, you go, I just go with how I feel. By the way, have you ever seen uh the the um God, what's the name of that show? It's uh it was a documentary with Dr. Dre and Jimmy Ivine. Oh, uh the Defiant Ones. Have you seen that? You should watch that. I think it's called The Defiant Ones and Dr. Dre and Jimmy Ivine, they're mute, it's all it's music, but it's all about um, you know, business. And one of the things Dr. Dre says in that is he goes, they were asking him, you know, whatever, how he does his thing. And he goes, I everything, if it doesn't feel right, I don't do it. And I don't know how he was kind of saying the same thing you're saying. I don't know how, but if it doesn't feel right, I walk away. And he there's they were telling the story how he walked away from millions and millions of dollars and walked away from his own labels and stuff because it just didn't feel right. It seems like you have some of that in you. And then there's the component of yeah, you learn some new skills, and then you can act on those. But I think the problem is, is some people go, Well, I'll learn the new skills, I'll act on them. What Kathy is teaching us is that no, the skills, and again, I don't want to put words in your mouth, so you tell me if I, but the skills and the learning, yes. But then there's this feeling, alignment, belief structure that she had. Like that's like I'm just it's still perfectly the way you said it. It's like, I just go how I feel, I follow my alignment, and I have this belief structure. And all of that come came before learning the method and taking the action. And I think it perfectly sums up, you know, kind of what we do, which is why, you know, it's really interesting at beginning this conversation. I was like, oh, this is interesting that you got you went right into feel, deal, heal. And I'm like, it's the perfect process, right? Because, you know, essentially you're like, healing would be like having, right? Dealing would be like doing, and feeling would be like being. So people think we have to have it, then we'll do it, then we'll be it, but it works the other way around. It's be it, do it, have it. And you know, watching, hearing your story, I'm like, that's exactly what it is. Be do have, that's how it worked for you. And I do think that's how it works for our clients.

SPEAKER_01: 54:49

Well, and I think, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this because yes, you're right. There's an aspect of I learned the specific techniques, I learned the specific methods and your theories behind things that helped my brain process and analyze those things on a very logical level. But then, of course, during my journey through life, I've gone through good times, I've gone through less than ideal times, I've gone through all those things that have shaped my connection to self, my self-trust, that aspect. I think you said it was with Dr. Dre that it's like if it doesn't feel right, I walk away from it. Like that level of that, I think you develop going through some of the hard knocks of life, you develop that connection to self, that self-trust, things like that. But when you talk about the four jobs, you know, relationships, health, business, finance, personal development, purpose. One thing that some of my fellow coaches in your program have asked me off and on is, you know, how do I get better? How do I, how can I, how, how can I do this better or be more like the way you just come to the table and you do this, Kathy? Like, how can I be like that? And I my answer is always the same. And it's not that they're necessarily lacking this, it's that my belief is we're all we always have work to do with ourselves. So I always say continue to work on yourself. Because I do feel like, and I do feel like even though I might intentionally be going into work on myself in a specific area, maybe one of those jobs, somehow, somehow, and I don't fully understand this, and you might have some insight on this, Jade, is me going through that field deal heel process that I went through with the the death that I experienced in my life that year. But then also what that brought up as far as you what you called knots that that shaped those misguided unconscious decisions, as those things started unraveling for me going through the process, it's not that I went into the work saying, okay, I'm gonna start working on the health aspect of my human job or the relationship aspect of my human job. It's not that my mindset was like, I gotta work on this human job of these four. I'm I'm gonna focus on this. It was I just allowed whatever needed to happen and heal to happen. And it, when I said in the beginning, it enhanced my lens in such a beautiful way in all the jobs. Somehow, some way, even though it didn't necessarily fit one of those jobs in particular, it has bled through all of the jobs. So when I say it has enhanced beautifully my lens in all four human jobs, somehow that has happened going through this work. So when I tell people, work on yourself and it will translate in all of the jobs. So suddenly, if it's the career that you're looking at, if it's launching that coaching, it's going to be there. It's going to be there. You know, so I don't know what your thoughts on that, but that's what I've noticed anyway.

SPEAKER_00: 57:54

Yeah, no, I I think it always, always works that way. I've noticed the exact same thing. It's almost as if people will come into this work as a client, let's do the client side first. They'll come into this work and they'll be like, I want to lose weight, or I want to get healthier, I want to make more money, or I want to fix my mother relationship, or you know, whatever it is. And they all they oftentimes go, why am I talking about this thing that happened when I was a kid where I got picked on or whatever? Or why is that coming up? Like I said, I wanted to lose weight. And what we find is that that belief structure is attached to a story regarding safety and security, or acceptance and belonging, or freedom and autonomy. And then those safety and security and acceptance and belonging needs and stories influence the relationship, influence the self-soothing with food, influence the upstream habits and behaviors. And so what we now uh kind of understand, I think, and I think the research is very clear on this, is that it's not habits and behaviors, it's identity. And identity comes out of stories and judgments that mostly were formed early in life, but form anytime there's some difficult moments. Like, for example, uh, many people, we've seen many of you have seen this. Someone loses someone like you did, they lose a job, they go through a health scare, they go bankrupt, and it can change an adult too. They form mud and they're never the same. That's why the field deal heal process unwinds the child stuff and the teen stuff and the young adult stuff, but it also keeps you, if you understand how it keeps you from becoming these, you know, um, these people who uh go through these things and now they're a shadow of themselves. And so it and then it does translate into the doing across domains. It always works that way. So I oftentimes say, don't be surprised that you know, you're here's the thing, people think the problem is what they should be working on, but it's really the pattern and the story beneath the problem. So they go, I want to lose weight because I'm overweight. They don't realize that being overweight is attached to a pattern of self-soothing with food, which is attached to a story about stress relief and love, right? And it goes, so what we do, what Kathy and I do is we go, we take that outward behavior uh or that outward thing, and we go, we unwind it back to the pattern, back to the story, back to the subconscious drives. And then we have tools and techniques to unwind that. And that's what we do at next level human. Then all of a sudden, people go, I don't know what it is, but I'm not self-soothing anymore with food. They don't have that language, but they go, my, they go, my cravings have gone away. And I go, what has happened is your self-soothing behaviors around food that were all about seeing food as pleasure and food as stress relief have been unwound because the those behaviors came out of development because your mom showed you love by giving you birthday cake and MMs, and that's what you did. But people don't tie those things together. In a very real sense, we're I hate to say this, people don't like when I say this, but we're we're very much like dogs in a sense that we we are trained and conditioned. And then we forget because we're adults and we're not supposed to be conditioned, and we're supposed to, you know, be logical and rational creatures. We're not. We're emotional, meaning making machines, and we're living from the meaning we made a long, long time ago. And so that's That's kind of how I see it. But I don't know. Do you have any kind of final thoughts for people or anything that you want to leave them with?

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:32

Well, I would say, and again, I will preface this by saying, Jade asked me to be on this today with very little information to be on to what we were gonna talk about.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:45

I was just saying, I just want to have a conversation with my friend, which I love about him.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:50

So trust me when I say this, he did not ask me to plug anything for him, but I have through the two years that I have been involved with Next Level Human, I would 1000% say it has changed my life in some of the most beautiful ways. I would encourage everyone to get involved in the Human Architect program. Even if you're not planning to start a business, even if you feel like you are okay in any of those four jobs, trust me when I say if you get into the program and you start doing the work, and you here's another word to throw out there, surrender to whatever is going to come up that it and trust that whatever's there is an aspect that's for your betterment, for your for your growth and your next level in life, um, you might be very pleasantly surprised as to where life leads you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:42

Yeah, and and just so you all know, because um, thank you, Kathy, by the way. You are so sweet. I appreciate the plug and I will take it. But for those of you who are wondering, um uh Kathy is a graduate of the Next Level Human Coaching Program. We call them the Next Level Human Architects. So that program is for clinicians, coaches, counselors who want to learn this new identity work and who also want to learn the new business model uh that Kathy and I uh practice from. And so you can reach out uh to me. Uh certainly you can find her. She's incredibly uh gracious with her time and has walked many people through discussing the program. For those of you on the client side, um, that we also have something called the human game that is for the client-facing side. Now, as you go through the coaching program, you get that as well. But I want to make sure they know how to get you if they if they want to work with you. So, where where can they find you? Where do you where are you mostly? I know you're on Substack a lot now, like me. Yes. But where else can they find you, Kathy, to to learn from you, work with you, and get involved with you?

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:47

Well, I am on Substack, Dr. Katherine Christie, Instagram, Facebook, all the traditional socials, or they can go to naturalmedicinementor.com and they can find more information about me.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:00

Naturalmedicineor.com at Dr. Katherine Christie on all the socials, and uh you can find her there. I adore you, my friend. Happy, happy new year, happy 2026, and thank you for being so lovely. You were so sweet to today. I so appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:18

Thank you, Jade. Happy New Year.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:20

Yeah, yeah, we'll catch up on text. See you later, my friend.