SPEAKER_01: 1:25

Hello, everybody who's joining live. I'm going live here with uh Dr. Kyra Bobinet, who is someone who's become a teacher of mine and someone who I really enjoy talking with. Good to see you again. I'm doing wonderful. Thank you for doing this. Obviously, thank you, all of you, for joining live on all the different platforms and welcome. If you don't know Dr. Kyra Bobinet, she is someone who I actually met for the first time. I don't know, it's probably a year ago, you and I talked about your book, and she educated me about the habenula, and she's doing amazing work in that regard. And so I was super excited to be able to have you back. And today we're going to be talking, correct me if I'm wrong, but we're going to be talking about some of this neuroscience, but specifically how it pertains to how we are, especially men, reacting and perhaps overreacting and moving into this term that we call rage bait that we all see out in the social media sphere that Kyra's going to educate us on, but that men seem to be more prone to being hijacked by. And I wanted to have this discussion with you because I do think that, you know, men are, let's to put it politely, have been struggling a bit in the way that they are approaching the world. And we're seeing a lot of different types of approaches to this and lots of different uh conversations around this. And so I'm going to let you frame it up. You know, I know that you've been on this for a little bit now in terms of having this discussion. And I'm going to just let you sort of frame it up in terms of what you think is going on here and get us sort of oriented to, you know, sort of the neuroscience around this.

SPEAKER_00: 3:13

Yeah, like easy neuroscience to boot too. So nobody has to be intimidated at all. You know, basically we have a master control switch that no one's ever heard of yet, called the habenula in the very center of our brain, both this way and this way. And the um the joke among scientists who research this habenula area says that the whole brain is there just to protect us padding the habenula. That's how significant it is. And the Latin word for it means little rain. It's kind of like if you have a giant camel and they have a pierced nose with a little leather strip through, that's how they're controlled by a little human in this giant animal is able to just be led around by their nose ring, you know. That little rain is the same in Latin as habenula. That that's the name habenula in Latin. And so it really speaks to the power of this to control us, to control our behavior. So when we bait somebody, we bait a human brain with rage, with you know, kind of these things online, what's happening is that the habenula is activated because it is responsible for protecting us from life-threatening things, from defeat, from failure, from disappointment and frustration. And what it does is that when it detects something that is a risk that is not going to work out for us, it lights up. And if it lights up, then we power down our motivation. It stops us from trying. And so in the case of Rage Fate, what's happening is that you've you're dangling this anger, this threat in front of the habenula, in front of the brain. And the brain is like either going to do one of two things. It's gonna basically charge at it because maybe I feel confident in myself, or I feel, you know, my my response to fight or flight is to fight, you know, and then I start writing things or whatever, you know, to to engage in that rage. Or I power down and I feel badly about myself, but is that's more of like an unconscious response to this threat. And so then what happens is we go through our life feeling disempowered from this rage bait, just being exposed to it. We're we're powering down and losing motivation every time we're exposed to this. So we'll get into like how that splits on gender here in a second, but I just want to kind of lay the lay the table, if you will, set the table around that.

SPEAKER_01: 5:44

Yeah, I love this. And let me uh maybe give some metaphors that help me understand this, and then you can correct me, Kyra, if I get this wrong. But when I first sort of understood the habenula, I like to always think about all right, what is this doing evolutionarily for us, right? So I tend to think about like if you and I go down to the watering hole with another friend, right? And we're picking up water and one gets taken away by a crocodile, right? I feel like the habenula is essentially going to fire and be like, you know, don't do that again, right? And so it's sort of like this idea evolutionarily, it makes sense that we would have some kind of system that goes, hey, you know, alert, there was a failure here. Therefore, don't be motivated to go back down to that spot again because there was a pretty catastrophic failure there previously. And so don't do that or sort of be aware. And then when I think about it from this mechanism, this brain mechanism, when we're let's say hanging out with family and someone passes me, I come from a big Italian family and they pass me some cheesecake and I start eating too much of that, and then I have some negative thoughts around that. Like, Jade, what are you doing? Like, you know, you're you have no discipline or whatever. It's almost like once again, this avenue kicks in and creates like the what the hell effect, perhaps. And I then lose my motivation to stop eating and continue to eat. And I guess this is where I think people can perhaps get confused because they I do think a lot of us come up in an environment where we go, well, doesn't self-beratement, doesn't you know, talking negative to ourselves motivate us not to do it again? And this research, correct me if I'm wrong, actually says the reverse that when we beat ourselves up, we actually are triggering the habenula, which downregulates and kills motivation versus stimulates us. And I do know there's some really interesting research on self-compassion and positive self-talk that seems to have the opposite effect, but at least from my understanding of the habenula, and I know we're going to talk about it in a different context, uh, you know, in this conversation, but am I getting that right? Are you seeing it that way as well? And or or do you want to correct me in uh any aspect of that?

SPEAKER_00: 8:07

The only thing I would say is that with the cake idea or the cheesecake idea, when you're past the cheesecake, and if you think that you failed by eating cheesecake, habenula on motivation to be healthy, gone.

SPEAKER_01: 8:21

So across the board, not just to eat the cheesecake, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 8:25

It's all or nothing. Like, you know, like uh why bother? You know, like I never I never do right, you know, like and that that self-beratement in that context is demotivating you from doing things that you wish you would do for your health. And then conversely, if you do that, your habenula is on you give up trying to be, you know, healthy. Then a secondary self-judgment comes in because the habilul is also the source of negative self-talk. So it's got a deep well of things that it can tell you about yourself negatively. Then it's like, oh, there I go again, nothing ever works for me, blah, blah, like complete give up. Then it drives depression or anxiety, depending on if it's lateral or medial, but but it owns both of those emotions. And so then you get somebody who, you know, eats a cheesecake, feels badly about that, feels bad because they feel bad, and talks to themselves themselves negatively because they're talking to themselves negatively, falls into depression or anxiety and is in a loop. And then the only thing that can help with that if you don't know that you need to that if you don't know you have hyphenula, the only thing that can help you with that is addictive substances. So then I'm on my phone doom scrolling, or I'm eating more cheesecake because I've got a sh I personally have a sweet tooth. Um, I literally ate cheesecake yesterday, by the way, just so you know, you know the synchronous.

SPEAKER_01: 9:54

My favorite dessert.

SPEAKER_00: 9:55

My God. I have been like I like it's almost like a carcass, like like a lion, you know, just over multiple days. I've just been like taking a couple of bites, you know, because I don't have any go-to healthy food in the house that I like. And so I whenever I'm like rushed in between, beginning of year, I've got back-to-back meetings, I'm just like dying, you know, in terms of my snacking. So all I can do in that moment is just be like, Grace, you know, I'm gonna get out of this, just gonna try to have as few teaspoons as possible of this thing, and then put it back in the fridge. And just, you know, again, meter out the harm over a number of days. So that's that's my sort of cheesecake uh journey right now. But anyway, we get we get back to this like depression, this anxiety, this stuckness, and that drives us because the habenula being on is such an itchy, uncomfortable state. We just want to numb out, distract, abuse, you know, we just want to use something so that we can turn it off or we can just kind of, you know, quiet the noise, because it is literally maddening. And so that is driving our entire society to be a society of addiction, whether it's gambling, whether it is porn, whether it is food, whether it is substances, whether it is your phone and social media, internet use, whatever it is. Excuse me.

SPEAKER_01: 11:21

Yeah, you know, it's interesting too. Like when I think about this addictive tendency, and we're gonna talk about this idea of getting, I guess, hijacked and moving into, you know, sort of this rage bait and moving into rage. But I just want to share this model with you because it might just make, you know, this is why I love talking to you, because I want to kind of see how you see this particular way of setting up. When I think about this, these mechanisms, and not talking necessarily about the habenula right now, but when I think about the world that we live in, I think about these coping mechanisms, and you're talking about a self-soothing mechanism that we move towards when the habenula essentially turns on, right? So it's like shopping, scrolling, sex, drugs, you know, all those kinds of things. I also see that there's two other, you know, sort of directions people will go. We have sort of this striving mentality, right? Which is different than what you're talking about, which is like, I have to be perfect, I have to do all the things, let me work out constantly, let me make money, let me do all these things. And then there's the seeker mentality, which is like, let me go inward, let me do all the self-development stuff, let me do all of this kind of stuff to see what's wrong with me. And so I kind of see this striving, sort of seeking, sort of self-soothing triad. And I do see a lot of my patients, clients, and myself sometimes will bounce around between these. But I do feel like this mechanism and learning this mechanism that I have gotten a better hold on, my striving personality is not necessarily as in touch or in check as my self-soothing personality is much better once I started learning some of this science. But I'm wondering if if you think it crosses over into some of this seeking, striving, self-soothing, or is this mostly a self-soothing response? Because they're all stress, they're all different ways of coping with stress.

SPEAKER_00: 13:12

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really interesting angle because all of these things are anytime we are trying to escape the pain of our negative self-talk driven by the habenula being flipped on and not knowing we have a habenula. I mean, who knows? Like, you know, there there's all kinds of ways that we soothe or escape, some more productive than others. I'd rather somebody, you know, go be the striver type. You know, well, not striver type necessarily, because when somebody's so performative, there it's such a state of anxiety, of like, you know, rat race. That's why it's called the rat race, where we're running from something, right? And so if that's the state of mind, then it's only a matter of time before that person meets with like they can't control everything and things are out of control, and and they then they go and they drink, or what you know, like there's there's all kinds of like near-field addictions that are surrounding the striving type of mindset. In in our research, we found that performance mindsets, performance-based goals, you know, definitely are inversely related to habit formation, meaning that you can't get there from here. It is a temporary rocket fuel that just goes first, you know, and and then you're left with nothing at the end of the day. You know, it's like you're still left with your negative self-talk. So the only way it seems to shut this thing off is to go right into the belly of the beast and shut it off from within. So I I'd rather people do the more introspection, like, you know, what is this teaching me? You know, what's going on with me? And and more specifically, how might I turn off my habenula by either reframing any failure, disappointment, frustration, self-indictments, or releasing them. Sometimes people are good at releasing them, just like let it go, you know, depending on their personality.

SPEAKER_01: 15:14

Yeah, this is where mine and your work uh starts to, you know, I think sort of dovetail. I don't I we you and I have been talking much about this, but I spend a lot of my time, you know, I basically came up in female endocrinology was my specialty, but I've moved into essentially identity work and unwinding, you know, through some of the research on, you know, ACEs, PTSD, these this kind of stuff, but not looking at it through the trauma lens, looking at it more through the drama lens, what story are you telling? How long has that story been there since you were an adolescent or a child? And my contention is, and I know this is getting slightly off topic here, but my contention is, or my belief would be that when we hold what I call mud, misguided unconscious decisions from our childhood and our adolescence, that this would make the habenula more likely to be triggered based on the story we tell about ourselves and our past successes or failures, as well as the stories we tell about the world and how safe it might we feel it might be, or how dangerous we feel it might be, which then does get into this sort of idea of someone coming up who has this idea that the world A isn't safe, and that's the stories they tell in their child brain and adolescent brain through the this drama that they've accumulated throughout their upbringing. And they go, and I also am, you know, because I always listen to I statements, I am also not good, or I have a sweet tooth like you and I both do, or these kinds of statements are critical in identity. And I would imagine they make the habenula much more sensitive to being triggered. And so just an aside there, sort of before we go in this, and the setup would be okay, so now we're talking about people who are online, they're coming with this sort of, and I don't know if you'd see it this way, but let's say a habenula that is more under their control or a habenula that is just constantly, you know, triggered, and then they watch certain things, yeah, trigger happy habenula, and then all of a sudden they watch these things and they're off and running. And I would imagine that would have consequences across the board for different behaviors.

SPEAKER_00: 17:25

So you're absolutely intuitively spot on that the more people have trauma aces in their background, the more hypersensitive that person's habenula is gonna be. The more it's likely to jump at anything or to activate at any little thing because it's gonna over-index on threat. If you've been threatened as a child, you're gonna over-index on threat and think that things are there and you have a distorted calibration against threats, right? So trigger happy. So then you put that person's brain into a situation where they are up against profit-driven algorithmic rage baiting. Let's be honest, that's what's happening. And that that super hyper threat, hypervigilance threat mechanism from the habenula is gonna be much more activated. And you know, we we want to help people to understand this when they're being baited, to have a metacognitive or you know, kind of like an observer state. You know, there's you and then there's a part of you that's watching you listen to this or watch this, right? So that that state, that second state, is the higher self, if you will, that the higher self that can maybe drive you in a direction, maybe talk you out of like, no, you know, there's no tiger in the bush. Like you just you're being baited by these things. So that you know, you can approach or avoid more accurately with life and not waste your energy being baited by some profit profit-driven algorithm.

SPEAKER_01: 19:08

Yeah, I love that so much. And I'm sure you've seen this too, where they recent, I just was reading recent studies, a recent study that, you know, it's been all over the news. You know, you see these headlines, and it basically says, you know, look, it's not IQ, it's not EQ, it's metacognition that is the number one source of intelligence for people. So the people who can be the most aware that they're aware or watching, you know, and observing versus only experiencing, tend to be the most emotionally mature, tend to be the most secure, and tend to be the smartest in their awareness. So it tends to trickle down into our emotional intelligence and our uh intellectual capacity because obviously, if you're not, if you're being triggered all of the time and you're in fear all of the time, it does not really allow you to have a perceptual filter that's very broad. It narrows your filter. And it does seem like, you know, when we're all sitting around, like sometimes I admitted this to you when we were before we went live. Like sometimes I look around, I'm like, I'm not necessarily a huge fan of some of the things that I'm seeing where I'm like, what are these people doing? Why are they so triggered? Why are they so angry? Why are they so what is going on with the world? And I know a lot of people sort of feel this way, but I do think what you're talking about, Kyra, is it's tapping us into this idea of like, look, there is a mechanism for this. Yes, it's a broad issue, but there is a mechanism that we now know and there are ways to deal with this. So I guess the question would be if someone is watching this right now and they're, you know, kind of one of the things I oftentimes say, the thing about being, let's say, an asshole, right, is that assholes don't know they're assholes, right? They they think they have good reason for behaving the way they behave, right? It's it's kind of like bad breath. We don't know we have it unless we see that people are offering us gum all the time and keeping their distance from us. And so I basically go, if someone's watching this and being like, am I being triggered? Am I a rage bait person? Have I gone off the rails in terms of my fear and my, you know, being hijacked by the algorithms? How would they know? That's my first question for you that this is happening. And two, can we unwind? This by understanding this new science.

SPEAKER_00: 21:28

So I appreciate that you're starting with metacognition, you know, that that we have to be able to watch ourselves react to these things in order to have any chance of not just being in our reptile brain and just reacting and being subject to these algorithms. So what is happening that is drawing us in, most likely, is we have a oxytocin deficient society, meaning that we are lonely, we are separated, we are disconnected from ourselves, each other, nature, whatever. COVID really accelerated that dramatically, but we were already on that path because of the technologies, the godlike technologies that we have and the paleolithic brains that we have. Something from Dr. Wilson at Harvard a long time ago. And we have to be able to contend far, if you will, in a good way with these technologies by being able to see our need for connection, our need to have in-group, out group so that we get our oxytocin in a healthy way instead of in a dysfunctional or angry or, as you said, asshole way. Because all that people are doing is they're getting baited by these things because they want to feel connected to something bigger than themselves. They want they they get tribal, frankly. And I used to do work with young men who were in gangs, who were incarcerated, and then they came back up in the community. And the number one thing that they would go for right as soon as they were released from jail is back to their gang. Because there's safety, you know, there's safety in numbers, there's safety in the gang. They feel validated, they feel connected. Even though they're doing horrible things and negative things, the the need for connection and belonging is the number one human need there is, even above being mentally sound, even above having mental health or say or physical health or safety.

SPEAKER_01: 23:32

Yeah, it's interesting, right? So they're looking for family. And you know, one of the things you and I talked about. So that so that's the first piece here. It's like connection. So when you're feeling not connected, you are more prone to being um, you know, hijacked by this. Why does this, Kyra, educate us on why this is happening to men more? In the research, it seems clear, right? And this is one of the things that you know you're wanting to educate us on. Why men, what is going on with men particular, and they in particular and their habenula and their way their brain interacts that's causing them to be more susceptible.

SPEAKER_00: 24:09

So biologically, men have more testosterone by a long shot than women. And that molecule is very much involved in protectionism, protecting, you know, fighting other men for mating rights, for territory, protecting the tribe, protecting the herd, protecting the pack, all of that energy. And so it's much more on alert to be able to be activated of, you know, arousal to anger, arousal to protection, uh, defending oneself and one's family, that kind of thing. And interestingly enough, GLP1, which is you know, all the rage right now with you know the injections and now the pills are coming out. And I do not think it's a weight loss drug. I think it is an addiction treatment drug.

SPEAKER_01: 24:55

Same.

SPEAKER_00: 24:56

Like, like it just happens to help you lose weight because it's treating your food addiction, your eating addiction, your emotional eating, all of that. All of that's coming off the habenula because guess what? The GLP1 is one of the two hormones that can turn off the habinula. And the habenula drives cravings, it drives withdrawal symptoms in addiction. And so it is the main operator of driving us into these addictive states, both because it makes us feel really uncomfortable when it's activated, we feel horrible. And then also once we give in to our cravings and we use or we we binge, then it punishes us on the downside of that with withdrawal, like because it makes withdrawal super itchy and uncomfortable. So what's happening with men is that they're at their habenula is being activated by this rage rate. They do not have GLP1s, which is a daughter molecule of oxytocin, oxytocin being the social bonding hormone, you know, for good or bad. If it's positive bonding or negative bonding, oxytocin does not care. You just need to belong, you need to feel connected to something and to someone. So they're susceptible to that connection, they're susceptible to uh their the vanilla being, you know, charged up with oh my gosh, I gotta protect my family, I gotta protect my beliefs, whatever the case may be. And there's no GLP1 or oxytocin coming from good places to turn that off. And so they're more easily triggered into this, you know, defended state. What's interesting to me is that there was a recent study on mice who the male mice went underwent something called social defeat, meaning they got their butt kicked over and over and over again. And the more they got their butt kicked, interestingly, paradoxically, unexpectedly, surprisingly, they became better fathers to their offspring. They became better partners that they they bonded with their female partners stronger. I don't really know why that's happening, because their habenula is activated and on. They become risk averse, you know, because they're like, that's not gonna work for me to fight those guys anymore. You know, let me just focus on my family, that kind of thing. Maybe they're channeling their sense of protectionism more towards their brood and their home life than going out there and just trying to challenge the world.

SPEAKER_01: 27:21

Yeah. I love that study and I I love this thought. And I'll I'll I'll share a couple thoughts of things that I have noticed in doing some of the work, specifically, some of my work, specifically with men. My career has been mostly with women, but I'm doing more work with men now. Like there's a lot of talk out there in, let's say, the manosphere about being alpha, right? And so there's a couple of things that, from my perspective, to me, when you look at this whole idea, it seems to get this idea of dominating is not what you see in real alpha, you know, societies out in nature. What these are is very loving individuals who can also be incredibly protective. So they're operating both sides. And it seems like this is essentially what you're saying, something about the current way that we do things with increased testosterone, lack of oxytocin. And again, that's just the hormonal reflection of the lack of balance. But in, let's say, a wolf pack or something like that, an alpha, you know, say male who is just going around beating everyone up is going to be quickly ousted by the rest of the pack. A true alpha is a lover and a fighter when necessary. And that's what it seems like you're saying biologically, oxytocin, the connection loving, you know, sort of thing. And of course, that does lend to outside groups. If, you know, oxytocin is an interesting molecule because for outside groups, it's kind of the opposite, right? If you're outside oxytocin, I'm already connected and don't come in and mess with me, then you add testosterone on top of that. But it does seem there's this balancing hormonal response that modern men in the West don't really seem to be balancing. So, yes, testosterone and yes, the ability to be your own man and be able to protect your family and the people around you. But that by itself is what we might call the asshole or the narcissist or the it's all about me, that is not attractive. It's also not effective. However, when the man is able to balance, you know, this idea of I am in support and protective, but also in love and in connection, this seems to be what I would love to see in the world. And if I'm understanding you scientifically in terms of these mechanisms, this parallels this oxytocin, testosterone, lack of connection piece. Is there anything you want to correct me on there, or do you see this as the same kind of parallel?

SPEAKER_00: 29:54

I literally had a conversation with my son last night about this in terms of like what kind of man he wants to be. And I was telling him that not only are you right about, you know, wolf packs, you know, these are highly, highly intelligent, like socially, emotionally intelligent animals that become the alphas. And it's a service leadership role. They're out there bringing in food, they're out there, you know, protecting the territory. Um it's it's a lot of stress on these apex animals. Um, in horses, for example, you'll have a boss mare usually, and she will rotate leadership with other boss mares because, you know, they it's exhausting to constantly be on watch over this larger herd. And not only that, but like no, nobody votes for an alpha that is not fair and is not reasonable and that is insane. Nobody votes for that person. They will take them out. And so you have to be emotionally balanced, you have to be fair, you have to be just, you have to be in service to the overall sustainability of the herd or the pack or the species in order for this to work. And I think that this alpha dog, alpha male kind of like extraction, this it's like a cartoon version of what this really is. And people just don't know how nature works, apparently. And they and they take this one thing and then they make it a psychotic version of itself, and they're completely wrong. They're completely wrong.

SPEAKER_01: 31:28

100%. Let me throw this at you, Kyra, because here's here's a potential solution. And I want to see what you think. My thought about this is that what happens with men and uh is that men are, and this is the testosterone effect as well, right? That men want to win and they want to, you know, um feel like they are uh, you know, sort of making progress and working towards something. And from my perspective, the worst thing you could ever say to a man is, you're a loser, right? Like that just, you know, crushes a man. The problem that I think is going on in our society is that what we're doing to men and women, really, but our culture essentially says there's one way to be a man and there's one way to win. And that one way of winning is to make money, drive a fancy car, like have status, you know, whatever it is in that way. And to me, I go, so then that gets defined as what you're talking about, this cartoon caricature of this alpha person who's playing only one game, you know, this game of status. And to me, I go, when I think of the men that I love, that I want to be like and emulate, what these men are is they're not alpha men in that character way. What they are is authentic men. So they go, I'm playing this game because it's the only game that I can play and win in the way that I can do it. This idea that we're each unique. Kyra is unique. There's no one like her on the face of the planet, never has been, never will be. Same with Jade. There's unique work she can do that no one else can do in the way that she can do it. Each person is like that, each man is like that. So, from my perspective, I go, if we could get people to define and play their own authentic game, what I might call their essentia, then this would perhaps, and this is my question about the habenula with this, give them, let's call it purpose. I call it essentia because I think this is larger than purpose, but let's say, let's just call it purpose because we're more, most of us know what that is. But this would then redirect this man to a game that is uniquely his, that's a purpose that he can uniquely serve in. I love that you said these leaders are service-oriented, that's a service-oriented position being a quote alpha in nature. Now all of a sudden they're playing their game. What I want to know from you is is there any good research suggesting that a purpose-oriented way of looking at life and playing a game that you define in this way instead of getting caught up in what culture is telling you to do, is there any protective nature in terms of the habenula being so trigger-happy when we put the umbrella of purpose on top? Is that something that we know? Is that something that we can speculate on? I'm curious.

SPEAKER_00: 34:13

Yeah, as long as the purpose is social in nature, I think that you're spot on. I mean, I think that we put too much on individualism. And that's where the caricature of the alpha male and this like baller kind of archetype come out of that, because that man's alone. And for those women who get with that man, they have to be willing to deal with the downside of that, which is that that man is not going to be a monogamous. You know, like he's gonna want to, you know, because cause that same drive of like get everything, consumerism, you know, like grab, grab, grab, grab, grab material wealth at all costs, it transfers over to, you know, wanting multiple partners and and things like that. So if that's not what you want out of your relationship, then it's really important to not go after these high flyers, these these these kind of, you know, uh apex thinkers, win-loss thinkers, but more of a collective thinker. You know, we used to have more, you know, male societies. You know, my grandpa who was um a Bohemian Czech in Iowa, whenever there was something wrong in the in the town, he and his buddies would go deal with it, you know, like they just would go and, you know, run somebody out of town, or if it had to come to, you know, beating somebody up or whatever like that, you know, that they they kept order in that community because they were a collective. Like we this is how we keep order here. Or there was Knights of Columbus, or there was the Shriners, or there was church groups, or there was there was different ways in which men protected their flock, that that that they really got together. And right now, I live in the country in the mountains in Santa Cruz, and we have a bunch of male turkeys that are hanging out with the hens, and they're jocking for a position in their own little male hierarchy, but they're all together alerting. Quail do this. There's there's a sentinel male who will risk his life sitting on a post looking out for the entire flox that they can eat. And then, you know, he'll he'll come down, he'll rotate with another male. Like that's how men are most beautiful in their purpose of serving, of protecting, of providing, is when they do it together, instead of, you know, isolating one man and being like, It's all up to you guys, you know, it's all up to you, dude. Because then he's alone and then so much pressure, it's way too much pressure for a human. Humans our our original instructions, our special superpower is collaboration. You know, we don't have teeth and fangs and hair, you know, hair, woolly mammoth hair. We don't have claws, and we you know, like how did we get to this place? We got it through working together and collaborating.

SPEAKER_01: 37:11

Yeah, and it's really interesting for those of you who are listening to this. I love that, Kyra. Thank you for that. But uh, one great book for those of you who are listening to Kyra to that was one of the best reads of the last five years. And I forget the name of the researchers, but survival of the friendliest and the research around that. That particular book, it first talks about uh domesticating dogs, but then also talking about how we humans, it wasn't survival of the fittest for us, but we survived because it was survival of the friendliest. And I agree with you 100%. And when I'm working with people in my work, to me, it's a it's a pretty easy way to deal with this when I make decisions. I essentially go, I don't prioritize self and I don't prioritize others. I basically just go, let me always try to act in a way that benefits me and others simultaneously. And to me, this is the idea of what uh you know a next level human in any sort of my brand would be essentially doing. I feel like because this is always oriented towards connection, that this naturally solves one of the problems that you're speaking of. If you feel disconnected, raging with testosterone, and then being hit constantly, pinged hot constantly with how dangerous everyone is and how dangerous outsiders are, and how we need to fight, fight, fight. There's no wonder that you're reactive. But then the bigger thing that I want to point out that Kyra's educating us on is that what happens next, and we kind of skipped past this, but I just want to touch on this, is then if you notice, she said what happens next is depression and anxiety. This downward spiral comes after that. And so then I would say to you men, you may not be putting these two things together, that this raging and this triggering, you may not be seeing that this is what's causing you to go to these very dark places, right? Instead, going to connection, stop paying attention to this stuff, and all of a sudden, right there, you're gonna start feeling better. Then and I wonder, you know, I just didn't want us to skip over that, Kyrie, because I think it's so critical because, you know, we're all hearing, you know, men are whatever it is, four times more likely to commit suicide. All these stats that we see, this is partly what's going on.

SPEAKER_00: 39:35

Yeah, and fortunately, the pendulum is swinging back to care about men. We made a huge error in focusing on only female, you know, early COVID, you know, 2016 on. Like, we can't do that as humans. It has to be all of us. And, you know, you you reminded me of my favorite quote from the book Breeding Sweetgrass, all thriving is mutual. So we can't leave anybody behind. It's unfortunate. Every time we try, and we try to be like these people, but not these people, we get sick as a society and bad things happen to us, to everybody involved, you know, whether you're the excluder or the one being excluded.

SPEAKER_01: 40:16

It reminds, you know, it reminds me of Kai, it reminds me of like if we played this game, this this like I think about this lion, right, out on the savannah, and he goes, I'm the king of the jungle, no one's better than me. And then he take makes it his point to control and have power over the bees and the beavers and everyone else. And then he ends up destroying himself in the process because you can't have food without the bees, you can't have water without the beavers. And this does seem to be the mistake we're constantly making. We are in one cycle. Where they go, we go, where we go, they go. And for some reason, humanity does not seem to be able to figure this out. You know, it just seems Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:57

I think I think indigenous people have figured this out. So there are pockets and also there are ancestral knowledges that that had this law on lock. It's I think what you're speaking of is that, you know, there can be this kind of breakaway mentality that creates uh illness, you know, and dis ease and war and things like that, that constantly we have to kind of deal with the eruptions of those things, you know, throughout human history. Oh But are we evolving? I think so. Like if if we can retain knowledge, you know, and I I believe that this is why we have the advent of the habenula coming to us as a species is hey, you know, don't let him get your habenula. Like guard that. You know, if if we haven't, you know, think thought of it philosophically, which, you know, we haven't heard the philosophical teachers or the religious teachers or all these other teachers, now the science is like, yeah, that that matters a lot, you know, and so knowing what's up here, knowing how to operate this operating system is the modern challenge right now. And we are putting the puzzle pieces together, a lot of us. And I think it's just a matter of like, you know, can we work together? Can we, can we continue to have these conversations so that this information spreads, so that we know how to prevent disempowerment, so we know how to not blame ourselves, so we know how to overcome failure and be unstoppable and really be a force of good in this world.

SPEAKER_01: 42:26

I love that so much. And I think it's a good place to stop, but I do want to just sum up a few things because people will are probably gonna be like, Jade, Kyra, can you please give me some to-dos? And so let me, if you don't mind, I'm just gonna briefly to sum up the thing, some of the things that people might do. And I want you to just correct me or add your own. But listening to you, I go, look, more connection in your life, you know, um, more of that oxytocin. And then I think the other piece of this is okay, so connection, but then this idea of becoming aware and getting in this metacognitive state, which means, you know, I know people aren't gonna love this, but some meditation and mindfulness essentially trains that. And then also, you know, disconnecting and paying attention to our algorithm. Why are you feeding this beast? If you are feeling triggered, it's because you're allowing yourself to be triggered. So those would be three things that I would say that people could do if you're listening. If you're like, well, give me the to-dos, those are three. Look for connection, not disagreements. Find the people you can connect with. Learn to have this metacognitive state where you practice mindfulness and be incredibly aware of your algorithm. I just don't have any of that stuff on my, I don't do divisive, dehumanizing stuff on my feeds at all. And so is there anything else that you would add to that before we end?

SPEAKER_00: 43:49

Failure is an illusion. You cannot fail. You are not failing. No matter what you're doing, no matter if the rage bait gets you, whatever, like that that's not you. And you know, now you know you have a benul and it's talking to you all negative, but you can just shut it off or say that's not true, or reframe it as, well, I'm just I'm a work in progress. Whatever it takes to get yourself out of feeling like you are done for, that you are bad, that you there's no hope for you, because there is hope. And that is the fundamental thing we have to spread and understand about ourselves in this modern time.

SPEAKER_01: 44:28

Love that. You know, I say to myself oftentimes, Jade, it's okay. You're only just learning. And switching into that learning mode tends to not beat me up. Dr. Kyrobavanett, thank you so much. You're so brilliant. I always love talking to you. Where can people find you and get more of your work?

SPEAKER_00: 44:44

Yeah, drkyrobavinat.com. My company is fresh try tri.com. If you want to do like a free habit formation that is, you know, de-shaming, defailing you in this way, protected, protecting you from your habenula. Um, and yeah, my my hope is just to make people healthier and happier all the time.

SPEAKER_01: 45:04

You're you're just so amazing. We so appreciate you. Thank you for the work that you do. And do me a favor, just stay on the line real quick. I'm gonna shut down. I just want to make sure everything uploads. But thank you everyone for hanging out, and we will talk to you soon.