SPEAKER_01: 1:25

Welcome, Dr. Ray Heinish, Danny Coleman. Last night, uh Danny and I were going back and forth about a project that he's been working on on leadership and a book that Danny has been working on that's gonna be coming out. And it's on this idea of leadership. Now, of course, when we talk about leadership, right, we there's many different ways that we can think about leadership. Danny spends a lot of his time in the corporate world and in the coaching world, helping coaches be better leaders, helping executives be better leaders, helping leaders of companies be better leaders. But of course, we can talk about leaders of countries and leaders of communities and being a leader in your family, which, you know, uh Ray, you know, has a family. Ray has also run many businesses. He's been leaders in a leader in many different ways. Danny has been coaching leaders, and um, you know, he's been someone who's been training leaders, and I also don't have a family, but I am someone who's run many, many different businesses. And so what I what I would like, Danny, is for you to kind of maybe just tee us off and take us in whatever direction you want to go in, because you and I were taught had a pretty big discussion about this. That I was like, you know, we really should involve a wider community in this discussion. And I would just love for you to get Ray caught up too, because normally we're all talking back and forth about the discussion, and then maybe Ray, you want to comment?

SPEAKER_02: 2:48

Let's just get into it. Yeah, I'll I'll frame up a discussion that I want both of your takes on. And this this is kind of in real time, so I don't know what you guys will say or what your perception is. But the the conversation we started yesterday, Jade, was essentially can anybody be developed into a leader? Or is it something I use this, I use this, I was sitting around the fire with my family around the holidays, and all my siblings there, they're entrepreneurs, they have management experience. So we we talk this stuff, and one of the things we were talking about was whether or not anybody can be a leader or not, or if it's just one of these things that you either have it or you don't. And there's this Drake line, because we're big Drake fans in my family, and he says, if you ain't got it, you ain't got it, the theory is brilliant. And so we were going back and forth because in in management, and you said it in all these different contexts, Jade. And I do want to talk about all the different contexts, but I just am curious to kind of start the conversation is can anybody be developed into this, or is it something that's more innate or genetic, or something that one of my brothers he said, look, it's not necessarily genetic, but if you don't get these these trainings in early childhood, then no, you're you're basically it's too little too late. So I definitely want your perspective on can we develop leaders? If so, how much can we develop them? Can you take a zero to a 10? Or is it just like taking a five to an eight, and that's the match we can we can help other people develop? And then if so, you believe that how much, and then how can we start to develop leaders? Like what are the tools or the strategies or the systems to help people develop? So that's kind of the question I would love your take on. I know you have some some uh frameworks that you want to talk about too, Jay, but that's just where I would love to kick this off. Is this even possible, or are we just talking to people that are already leaders and saying you got it and you have a high responsibility, and others, you just don't got it?

SPEAKER_01: 4:35

I I would love for Ray to go first, unless you want me to go first, Ray. Like this idea can we develop leaders? It do you either have it or you don't? I'm curious. I can certainly go first, but I always like to hear Ray's take on these things.

SPEAKER_03: 4:50

No, always you first, my friend.

SPEAKER_01: 4:53

You want me to go first? Um, I I do think that my default, obviously, I study personal transformation for a living. We all kind of do, right? So some as a person who studies personal transformation, uh, I feel like absolutely people can be developed and become amazing leaders. Um, can you go from a zero on a leadership scale to a 10? I don't think that that necessarily is the case. Do I think it's possible? Yes. I think it's extremely rare, though. So I do think we each have what I would call our essentia, which is our essential nature, who we are, like our internal DNA. And I also think we have our superpowers, which are our sort of earned wisdom. They partly are our DNA, but they also are things we've learned along the way. And then I think we have sort of our purpose potential, the thing that we desire to do. And I think in that skill set and that DNA, if you don't have the skill set, you haven't developed the education, or you don't have the DNA, those are the two places that can hinder you. Um and I'll say one thing, I guess, to tee uh, you know, Ray off on this, to see, you know, if if Ray agrees with that, I'm sure he's gonna add or subtract from that in in terms of his perspective. But I guess the question I would say is if that model is true, and I certainly don't think it's complete, but if that model is true, I do think that the DNA, the essential nature of somebody and their education is gonna be the major thing that keeps them stuck, regardless of how much they want to be the thing. So I'll see what you know you you think about that, Ray. But that that's kind of where I would start it off.

SPEAKER_03: 6:48

So when when I was um years ago, uh I started a business uh that at the time was called Your Prescription for Health. It was a holistic nutrition store. I still own that store, it's now called the Expert Nutrition Center. But um, I started it with a partner um who was another pharmacist. And um he and I had very different styles about us. He was a very kind of um, I don't know, just uh he had a very kind of short temper. He was very um, you know, uh, you gotta force people into doing stuff kind of kind of thing. And I I simply wasn't. But eventually we clashed and I decided to buy him out. And this was before, you know, the decision was made to buy him out. And I was sitting there in his office. It was me, him, and my chief of staff, like my number one, like my um uh I guess you would call him my COO. And he and I were good friends. And um he had worked for us for quite a few years. And at one point, you know, Brian, uh my my partner at the time was was um, you know, again, he and I were clashing and the the business relationship was not doing wonderful. And he says, he says, Ray, do you think you you know, do you think you can run this business without me? I said, Yes, I do. He says, I don't think you can. He says, I think that uh within one to two years, this business will go under if you're at the helm. And uh he he stops for a second, he thinks, he looks over at Hunter, he says to Hunter, who was my friend and chief of staff, he says, What do you think, Hunter? You think if I leave here that uh he will uh that this business will be here in two years? And Hunter thought for maybe two or three seconds, and he said, No. And I remember thinking, like in my in my heart, uh my heart just crushed in that moment. And um, and uh, you know, so the the meeting ended up and I went to my office and Hunter went into his office and and uh I it just it just really had me thinking about this whole concept of leadership. And so fast forward, we've been in business, you know, a deck a decade, you know, beyond that point. So um at that moment I realized that I had to made make some changes some in the way that I lead, because even the person who's my number one uh did not think that I was a leader in that moment. So to answer your question from my own experience, um absolutely, you can change. You can go from from uh from not being a wonderful leader to being at least a good leader and possibly even a great leader with the right kind of mindset, the right education, and the right desire to be a leader. And so um I think it's important, and I think Jade, you'll you'll resonate with this that leadership isn't really a role. Leadership is a nervous system. And I think this is where the the big challenge comes in answering the question, can somebody become uh a leader? It's really about what's your nervous system, like how are you built on the inside? Because as you are on the inside will be how you lead on the outside. And uh I think it's it's you can't fake it. Like you can't fake leadership because uh the lead will sniff that out in a moment. And so how you're built um really plays an important role. And I think the reason this is important is because you can't learn to um I don't I I I don't think that you can learn to be a leader. I think you can learn to grow yourself to the point where leadership emerges. And I think that's a that's a huge distinction that people need to know because you can read books on leadership. A lot of people read books on leadership and they they learn stupid stuff like when you're in a a meeting, uh lean back in the chair and put your arms behind your head like this to uh to uh show that you're uh that you're uh that you have leadership uh quality, you know. And you will see this, you will see this in in board meetings and things like this. My wife tells me all the time that she's like, oh my God, I can't believe he did that. Like it's so blatantly obvious. You can't you can't fake being a good person. And unfortunately, I think, well, fortunately, I think leadership really has to start from um you know, from the perspective of who you are as a person, and then that emerges out into your leadership. Yeah, I want to see.

SPEAKER_02: 11:33

So everyone agrees that every that that it can be developed. That's interesting. So no, not like a couple of my siblings are like, no, you got it, or you don't. I think the next question is because I also believe I found the side that yes, leaders can be developed, and probably to the side that is probably a little too naive and a little too idealistic. I think you can take a zero to an eight. I think it may take a long time. And then maybe that's the next question is okay, yes, you can, but should you? I talk about this a lot with a lot of the managers I work with. It's like, okay, if you're spending all your time and energy developing this person who's a one or a two in leadership ability, then you're kind of wasting a lot of your time and resources that you could be taking uh other leaders from a seven to a 10, or just your productive output for what you can do. So I guess the next question is that should you even try? Like, is there is there people that you would identify and just go, you know what? I don't even know that this person is worth it. And one, I just have one comment too on on Ray's story. This is why I love talking to Ray. He always has a story, and I just find yourself like like leaning in, be like, then what? Then what? It's always so good. And it always illustrates the point perfectly. And that guy who was like, This company is gonna be gone two years, is my problem and is my my whole point for this discussion. That he just put a cap on you for no reason. He had no evidence, no basis, no hope, no vision that you could turn to anything than maybe what you were in that time, or just his perception of you in that time. So I think that's just your garden variety, asshole. And I think that limits a lot of people from becoming what they could be. One of my favorite uh author, Sean Acor, he's a guy out of Harvard. He always says uh the foundational step to change is believing that you can change. So just having some hope that there is opportunity to develop and grow, those are the people that develop and grow. It's like the growth mindset stuff. So I love you told that story, Ray, but that guy is my problem in sort of my space where people go, no, you got it or you don't. That's what he told you. You don't got it. And that totally just it just stops the conversation. It stops the process of development. That is a huge issue uh from my point of view.

SPEAKER_03: 13:43

Yeah, once once you put a label on somebody, listening stops. You know, when you say Republican, uh, or you say not a good leader, well, you know, you're not gonna, you're not gonna hear certain things come out of that person's mouth at that point, because that label can oftentimes dictate the type of uh the type of of things that people are willing to tell you. And so, yeah, if you're gonna open up and you're going to and you're and and you wanna see, hey, does this person and everybody has the potential for leadership quality? I think that I think that's obvious to me. The question is, uh the question is, can that leadership quality emerge from the person at this time, or do you have to develop them? And to answer your question, is it worth it to develop leaders? I I I think you don't have a I don't think you you have a choice because like there are no Navy SEAL commanders who went into basic training as Navy SEAL commanders. Now they had certain qualities about them for sure, but it was very, very um raw. They come out Navy SEAL commanders because they um they train and they uh develop those qualities, those seeds that exist within them. So yeah, I think you do need a seed of leadership within somebody. Uh, but at the same time, it takes a lot of development. Nobody comes out of the womb a great leader.

SPEAKER_01: 15:09

Yeah, I I love that. And I also think part of the reason that we get this wrong is because, like Ray, I think that uh it is obvious to me that we're all leaders, okay? But what happens is in our culture, we only say the person at the top is the leader. And to me, what I think the person at the quote top really is, is somebody who can spot where their people are best able to lead. In other words, a great leader sees leaders all around them and puts them in positions to lead in those areas, right? So to me, I love this idea because I essentially go, that's what we mean by essentia. It means that there's something that Danny Coleman can do in only the way that Danny Coleman can do it. There is something Ray Heinisch can do in only the way that he can do it. All of you listening, there's something you can do in only the way you can do it. And to me, a great leader sees that in people and goes, you might not be someone who's going to do this, but I'm going to put you in that position. And it reminds me of my least favorite football team, the Patriots, and the coach Bill Belichick, right? He is widely known as somebody who put his players, not necessarily the best players, not necessarily the people who were drafted the highest in the NFL draft, but he had a way of building the game and his system around their strengths. He also had a way of building the game around the other team's weaknesses. To me, that's a great leader, because essentially what he's saying is I'm not a leader in a sense. What I am is somebody who influences and inspires people to lead in the ways that only they can lead. And then I go, that's a leader. A leader is someone who doesn't go, I'm the I'm the one in charge, I'm the one that's gonna lean back and tell everyone what to do. A leader goes, I'm good at this, I'm not good at these 10 other things. Therefore, I need other people to do this. When I get together with Ray and Danny, right, I just go, I'm not very good at leading in particular ways. I need Ray to do certain things to make me better. I need Danny to do certain things to make me better. And then we all elevate. And so I think that's a quintessential aspect of a leader putting people in positions to elevate us all. So to wrap that up, I would say a good leader elevates individuals, and in so doing that evolves the culture that they lead in.

SPEAKER_02: 17:54

What would you say, Ray, as far as other traits of good leadership? So I like Jade's a lot. It elevates other people, it puts them in positions to where they can uniquely succeed or uniquely blossom. Like, what would you say if someone's listening to this right now and they're going, all right, this is good, I want to be this, whether it's in my community or my work or my family, whatever. I want to be more of these things. What should I be focusing on? If you tell me I can develop, what should I be developing right now?

SPEAKER_03: 18:22

Um, I'd say that's a that's a difficult question to answer generally, um, because I have a hypothesis and I'll run this by you guys and see if see if you guys uh agree with it. I think that leadership is defined by the lead. And let me let me uh explain what I mean by that. So I'll explain with examples. Like Obama, Obama versus Trump. Um, there's there's a guy who wrote the book The 10X, uh, Grant Cardone. Uh I think the guy is uh from from the perspective of um of a a human being, I don't get a good sense that he's a very dharmic person, but there's no doubt that he is a leader. There's no doubt that he leads sales, you know, when you see him on videos, the way he's he is uh coaching his sales team is it's like close the sale, you know, uh um find you know, make the sale, get it done, you know, don't take no for an answer. It's that kind of leadership. Well, he's leading salespeople who who are interested in making a lot of money. And so if somebody comes in, let's say that the the people who are being led are are very money-centric, that they just want to um they just want to uh get a lot of money, they just want to live the lifestyle and uh you know live in mansions, drive fast cars, then Grant Cardone is probably a really good leader for them because he helps them achieve the goal that they are after. Now, that's definitely not my style, and I would I and because of that, I will likely never be a uh you know a uh uh a billionaire or a um you know somebody who makes a hundred million dollars in my career because I don't have that that nature about me. But um, but for somebody who wants that, he's probably a good leader, right? Uh there are people in the you know who believe Trump is a good leader, and you know, people who think Obama's a good leader. Well, that why is that? Well, it's because they have different goals, they have different uh desires and different ideas of what a good, healthy world looks like. So what do you think about that? That that leadership is defined by the lead. Do you think that that's true? Or do you think that there are just general qualities that every leader must have?

SPEAKER_02: 20:45

I got no, I got no pushback on that. I think I think that's true. You know, I I found myself thinking as you were sharing that, Ray, it's it's just is there an element of, I don't know, universal, worthwhile goals, though? I think if you you read all these anecdotes and you you start to observe people and they get all the maybe they uh they go the Grant Cardone goal route and they go, I want the car, I want the money, I want the girl. And oftentimes when people attain these things, uh they find themselves, that's not exactly what I wanted, or I feel a little bit empty, or I'm missing something. This is a lot of your work, Jade, on the on on meaning and purpose. They're missing some of those elements. And I I almost want I'm just wondering out loud if if leadership, at least the way we're defining it today, has some sort of has some sort of uh responsibility to direct people in ways that, you know, maybe that are more positive for them in the long term. You know, it's one of the things I say about you guys all the time. I I have a podcast and I talk I mentioned both of you a lot on that podcast. And one of the things that I thought I was going this way, and I thought I wanted these things, and you guys gently steered me in different ways that in my early 20s to be like, ah, but maybe look at this direction. I'll never forget. Uh I uh wrote about this recently. I was sitting at the kitchen table. I used to live with Jade, and I'm sitting at the kitchen table, and I dropped out of school at the time. And I'll never forget sitting there. I was like, nighttime, and I'm like, yeah, man, I'm not going back to school. I have my plan to make millions. I had a weird company named College Body. I'm like, it's desperate, it's a billion-dollar company. And Jade, very gently in his very Jade ways, he just altered my perspective a little bit. And one of the things he said, he was like, Look, Dan, I no doubt in my mind that College Body is going to be a billion-dollar company. If you that's where, if that's where your purpose is, you go for it, dude. But one thing I'll just share with you is if you are in your mid-30s, which I now am, and you say, Oh, I'm really into this type of thing, you'll be able to go back to school and you won't have to start from undergrad. So maybe just go get the undergrad. You can still build college body on the side. So we shifted my perspective. I ended up going back to school. And now here I am in my mid-30s, and I'm applying for a performance psychology degree that I want to pursue. And if I had to go back to algebra one, there's no way I'd be pursuing this degree. I'm like, it's not worth the time, energy, or money at this point. So it there, I wonder if there's almost, let's call it good leadership. Almost like there is a moral underlining to steer people in ways that maybe where you do have wisdom and or there is a moral compass. So I don't know if that makes sense. I'm sort of just thinking this out loud as you were sharing that, right? Because I think you're right on the surface. If we're going to say leadership, it's defined by the letter. So all those people you mentioned are leaders and it has to align with the person's goal. But I wonder if there's a higher, higher form of leadership that maybe we should be discussing or pursuing.

SPEAKER_01: 23:35

You know, as always, I get like whenever whenever I listen to two of you, I get like, I just these conversations just get me charged up. I just love them. What I would say is I 1000% agree with you, Ray, and I'll add to this and see uh if you want to poke holes in this. But it makes me think, because I think there's two kinds of goals. When I think about certain people, the Grant Cardones and the Trumps versus the Obamas and the others, right? If we just look across this, to me, I see it as direction is a key component of a leader. But there's two aspects to direction, right? There's short-term direction, what I want to accomplish now, versus what is going to benefit me later. Now notice I say me and you know, I and me in that statement. I think the best leaders, they go I and me. They go, what do I want to accomplish now and what is best for me later? And they go, but what is going to be best for others later as well? And not because there's some, you know, for those of you who are like, who cares about others? Let me just, you know, if if I don't, I look at it like this, and let me see if I can come up with, you know, analogy for this to make this make sense. If I am, um, if I am a lion in the savannah and I'm the king of the jungle, and I go, I'm king, I don't care what anyone else says, I'm declaring I am the king, and I am going to force my will, and I'm gonna make the bees and the beavers do my will and destroy all of them. And I am going to have unique power. What that lion does not understand is he will destroy himself in the process because he cannot survive without the bees and the beavers doing the unique work that they can do in only the way that they can do it. And a good leader, I think, understands that even if it is just about self-preservation, they understand that where they go, I go. And so I think this is part of the issue with leadership, that the best leaders take care of self and others simultaneously. That lion will destroy himself and his ecosystem if he just goes, I'm all about me and the lions. I don't care about anyone else, because he destroys the bees and the beavers, no water, no plants, everything else dies around them. I think that's what a leader does. They have direction and foresight.

SPEAKER_00: 26:08

Hopefully they have empathy, but whether they do or not, I think this still holds true. Digesting the line over there, right?

SPEAKER_03: 26:25

I don't disagree with uh really anything he says there. Um I guess I guess to to kind of move the conversation forward, I are there qualities of leadership that apply to the Obamas and the Trumps, to uh Grant Cardone and the Jade Titas of the world? Is there are are there qualities that we that we can say definitively um uh are characteristic of almost, if not all leaders? And um I might start with one, uh, and that is uh possibly clarity. Like uh clarity is, you know, I know that Grant Cardone has is clear, we're about making money. Um and uh, you know, uh Obama might be clear about hey, we're about uh, you know, uh progressing liberal, um, liberal um concepts and into the world. Um, you know, so would you say that clarity is one characteristic that is characteristic of all or most leaders?

SPEAKER_02: 27:30

I definitely would.

SPEAKER_03: 27:31

And what else would you say? What would you say would be next?

SPEAKER_02: 27:34

My big one that I talk to a lot of leaders and and managers about is leaders go first. So they have to be the one to bring up the conversation. They have to be the one to take the first action. And I think that's Grant Cardone started the business, Jay Tita started the business, uh, Donald Trump ran for president, Barack Obama's the one who ran for president. They're the ones out in front, visibly out in front in in some capacity. If I want to be the leader, like one of the things uh in my in my marriage, my wife and I hate talking about finances. It's not fun for us. We try all sorts of different, we light candles, we set the mood. I'll put on a little Marvin Gaye if I need to. I'm just trying to change the whole environment to talk about finances because we both have financial stories, mostly me, actually. She's probably fine, but it's mostly me. I got all these financial stories wound up, and it's very difficult for me to talk about finances. One of the practices I have in my family is I always want to be the one to bring up, hey, we need to have a monthly financial conversation. I'm the one who's doing the tracking uh on a spreadsheet. I pull it up, I pull out our accounts, I say, Yep, I spent that much on Chipotle last month, and I turn bright red. So I think like even on a smaller scale, I try to remind myself like leaders gotta go first. So if I have beef with someone, I gotta be the one to be like, hey, I gotta be the one to call it out or bring up the conversation. If I'm leading a team, I gotta do the behavior first if I want them to follow. So I think that's that's probably my big one. But no pushback on the clarity, right? I think I think that's critical. And that's one of the huge issues I see a lot of leaders I work with. They are not clear in what they want and what they expect. And uh then they're surprised that their teams are in disarray.

SPEAKER_03: 29:10

And so that's I think more than that, the bigger, the big problem is oftentimes they will substitute motivation for clarity. So if they don't have clarity, they'll they'll try to motivate. And uh the question is motivate where? And that's you know, motivation is is great, but if it's if it comes if it comes before clarity, where are you motivating the people towards? And I think a lot of a lot of people who are in who are being led in in situations like that, that's a big complaint among you know in the corporate world. Um, this person, you know, yeah, they're they're positive, yeah, they're they're uh um, you know, they they have a positive mental attitude about everything, but they but I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know where I'm where we're going, what we're supposed to be working on. So it just seems like clarity is an important uh um component. Anything else to add to that, Jaden?

SPEAKER_01: 30:00

Yeah, no, I think I think um clarity uh is key. And then it makes me what it made me think of as you guys were having that discussion is it's the idea of incentive structures, which come out of clarity, right? Because like, you know, here's another thing that I I've been playing around with, and I want to see where you all go with this, but I do think this comes from leaders, right? So I think it goes to Danny saying the leader has to define this. I think part of what gets us in trouble and what makes us go, this is a good leader or this is a bad leader, is something that's hidden because results come out of incentive structures and clarity determines the incentive structure. So as long as you're clear on the right things, like for example, you know, we might say in the Western world, capitalism is the incentive structure. Profit is what we need to do, and and and there's ideas around that, like that creates creativity and competition, and that's a good thing, right? But then we might miss the incentive structure for perhaps of human thriving, right? And uh, you know, so then we go, well, if it's just profit, that incentive structure is going to lead to certain things that are hidden from us. For example, right, if we are upset about our health care, you know, in a particular country in the United States, if you're like, I'm upset about the pharmaceutical industry making all this money or whatever it is, instead of going, the leader, the CEO of that pharmaceutical company is a bad leader, you also could look, they may be, by the way, but you you also could look and be like, well, what's the incentive structure driving that leadership? So it's not just direction downward, as Ray was saying, towards the people that you know you are, you know, quote, leading. It's direction upward in terms of what are the incentive structures that I can set in place that create long-term better results. Imagine if we had a leader who was like, my incentive structures are not just profit, but also human thriving. And I don't need to put one above the other, by the way. I'm gonna incentivize both equally. Now all of a sudden, you've got a different world because that leader defined that. And this, I also think uh is what we need to get clear on. So I like, I love this idea of clarity, and I just think we need to go look upward, you know, top down and bottom up clarity.

SPEAKER_03: 32:27

Okay, so maybe you can build for us or begin the process of building for us a next level human leader. Like what would you say that person looks like?

SPEAKER_01: 32:39

Is that to me or to to Debbie?

SPEAKER_03: 32:41

That's to you, yeah. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01: 32:43

I mean, to me, uh to me, the next level human starts with the idea that I cannot prioritize self over other, nor can I prioritize other over self. So I think that incentive structure has to be the first thing. And the reason why actually is not for it's not, it's kind of selfish. It goes back to the lion. It basically says if I prioritize others over self, I destroy myself almost immediately. But if I decide uh, you know, prioritize self over others, I end up destroying myself later on. So if I want sustainability, I must first prioritize self and other simultaneously. Now, as soon as I do that, from my perspective, that's that to me is the first principle of an individual and a good leader. So to me, I go, that first principle, then, and I would love to hear your, you know, in terms of secondary principles, I always go, what's the best first principle? So to me, I go, that first principle, in and of itself, if I made every choice as a leader from the perspective of I must simultaneously take care of self and other, because if I don't, I hurt self and other. Whenever I hurt other, I hurt self. Whenever I hurt self, I hurt other. So that honestly, it's a very simple answer for me. I don't have to have this big, you know, sort of framework. All I have to do is say, for me, that's my first principle. What I love talking about with all of you, though, is that I know that you may find areas that could improve this. But I think actually that very simple idea, when I step into leadership, whatever role it's in, whether I'm running a country, running a family, running whatever I'm running, I go, how do I prioritize self and other simultaneously in all my decisions?

SPEAKER_03: 34:29

I love that. I, you know, I have a I I uh when I coach people on on business, I say the the the golden rule of business is as you go, so goes your business. Uh and you can apply this to career. As you go, so goes your career. And um as you go, so goes your team. So if you do prioritize them over you to the point where you begin to disintegrate, uh, then that there is no way that that does not have a negative effect on the business, the company, the team. So you have to um, you know, you have to uh in a way prioritize your own health, your own um mind, your own uh ability to lead. And if you don't, if you just give, give, give, give, give, uh, then eventually you are going to disintegrate, and so will the team, the business, the company.

SPEAKER_02: 35:27

I like that you guys are talking about paradoxes too, like being able to hold two thoughts at once. I think that's a key leadership trait. I've been coaching a lot of leaders lately where and and new, like younger, new managers, and they'll come to me and they'll go, I did what you said, Danny, it doesn't work. Stupid advice. And I go, Well, yes, but let's add a little nuance, a little discernment. So, for example, I have something I call the law of oxygen. So if you if you have something like linger lingering around inside, you feel it in your stomach, like you feel it in your chest. It's been, it's you've been you keep talking about it to your spouse, but you're not saying it to the person who needs to hear it. The law of oxygen says your only job is to speak it, give them the information, or at least enter the arena. It's gonna be clunky. You may not do it perfectly. I don't have a perfect script for you, but just enter the arena. Law of oxygen, give it air. People come to me and say, Well, I said it and they didn't change. And I go, Yeah, but that adds no discernment. It's like it's not, you don't just tell somebody and they change. You also you speak it, but then you have to understand what they're saying. You have to understand their story and their perspective. So it's the paradox of take care of self and take care of others. They're not actually, they're not actually opposites. They must be kind of unified. So there's a lot of these paradoxes, like, yeah, you need to be able to speak, but you need to be able to listen to, yeah, you need to be a leader and go first. But sometimes you need to let other people go first and let them grow and be in the arena first. So there's a lot of paradoxes in leadership. So I like that first principle just from that perspective. And that's that's where my brain kind of went.

SPEAKER_01: 36:55

Yeah, I think Ray, this is where I really enjoy speaking to Ray. And I wonder where you're if you're thinking this, Ray, because the first thing I thought when Danny said that is if I had to distill this down, and this might get, for you listeners, this might get a little bit philosophical, but I do think it's important. Because if I had to boil down, I think the problem in society and humans, it's the immediate, like if there's a matrix, you know, like people talk about this idea that we're stuck in the matrix, this illusion. I think that illusion is binaries and duality. It's this idea that everything has to be a duality. There has to be good and there has to be bad. If I do this one way, I'm right, and you have to be wrong. And so I actually agree with you. And the reason I brought up uh, you know, Ray in this, because Ray essentially studies and teaches me a lot about the philosophy of non-duality. And the idea to me is that we fall into this trap constantly right, wrong, up, down, black, white, Republican, Democrat, win, lose. This is how we are built. And it is, it is almost like so hidden behind the scenes that we don't even realize we are doing it. So I think what you're speaking to there, Danny, is this idea that I actually think the most balanced people don't see dualities anymore. And they actually get frustrated with the fact that everyone around them constantly ping-pongs back and forth between duality. I don't know about you two, but this drives me crazy in my life now because I can't have a conversation with anyone who can see a nuanced point, I feel like. It's like constantly they have to take up these extremes. Now, here's one thing just to uh go in this direction, from my perspective, that's why self and other always, and this is why empathy, I think, is important. But here's the question I would put towards you to uh talk about this duality to both of you. Can you have a kind leader who's not a good leader? Can you have a cruel leader who is a good leader, right? And this is where I think people start getting twisted a little bit. I would answer that question the following way, but I want to see how you two answer it because I think this gets into it. I think you can 1,000% have someone who is kind and an awful leader, right? I think that that is 100% can happen. I don't think, however, and I could be wrong, and I just want everyone listening to battle test this. I don't think you can have a cruel leader and a divisive leader who's a good leader, right? I just don't. And the reason why is they violate this rule. They stay in dualities and they choose self over other, and that violates that first principle. But I'm curious, especially with Ray, because he spends a lot of time in the realm of non-duality, what he would say about this and what I might be missing.

SPEAKER_02: 39:56

And before Ray goes, can for the listener like me, can you just, Ray, maybe say what a duality is? I'm not admitted, it's it's just either or. So duality is like it's heads or tails, and non-duality is like it's the coin. Is that what a duality is?

SPEAKER_03: 40:10

Duality is really uh there's me and there's you. And non-duality is a, I don't know if you'd call it a philosophy. It's um, you know, in it it originates, you know, from from um the uh Advaita Vedanta, which is like a a um Hindu kind of um uh a sect of of Hinduism where uh there is only one consciousness and we are all that. So there's only one consciousness looking through my eyes and looking through your eyes. That's that is kind of the broad um view of what non-duality is. But from a more practical standpoint, duality is just like Jade said it, which is when you think there's a me and there's a you, then our natural tendency is to want to protect the me and to act on um to act for me first and you second or not at all. And so when you start to say, well, his success means I can't be successful, that would be a dual a toxic duality that I think a lot of people do fall fall into. You know, and what you were saying, I guess what you were saying, Danny, um Is uh, you know, with this example of, well, I did what you said and it didn't work, is um I I you know I find that uh I find it uh kind of a funny uh uh a funny uh story from the sense that we all kind of think that. But the reality is we can never know if it worked or not, because there's oftentimes, it's like it's like planting a seed and watering the seed and giving it sunshine and then expecting, you know, expecting the next day to see a flower. And uh and so you can never know, um, you know, and this is great as as uh for leadership, you never know how your when your seed, the seeds that you plant and the people that you lead is going to sprout. And in um in uh in Vedanta, you know, from a non-dual perspective, what we say is the rain, the rain uh grows flowers in the garden and thorns in the marsh. It the re the the nature of the rain is the same. It's what it falls on that ultimately determines whether, you know, what what grows. And um and so if the rain of if the rain of your leadership falls on somebody who's on a you know on the marsh, it's gonna grow thorns, it's not gonna grow flowers. So a lot of this has to do with the people that you're leading as well. And again, this comes down to um you know the the lead determine the leadership, you know, determine what leadership is. And um, you know, generally speaking, Grant Cardone is going to, I'm I'm sorry I keep using him as an example, it's just he's just an exaggerated example, like a caricature of a leader, I think. And um and so you know, he's going to draw in certain types of people. And his leadership is going to rein on certain types of seeds and it's going to grow certain types of plants. And the same thing holds with um you know with me. And Jade talked about you know kindness. I think I think uh kindness in a leadership in a leader, depending upon who you're leading, can be taken advantage of. If you lead kind, if kind a kind leader leads kind people, I think uh there's there's a synergy there. But if a uh a kind leader leads unkind people, then you start to grow the rain falls on weeds, on weed seeds, and you grow weeds in the garden. So I think uh you know, some of this is about, and I've kind of gotten off track, but some of this is about making sure that you're leading the type of people that that that uh match with your leadership style. Otherwise, you know, you don't want uh a kind person leading Grant Cardone style led folks because uh that water, that rain's gonna fall on the weed seeds and they're gonna grow weeds, if that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_01: 44:12

Yeah, you know, it's a complicated argument, but I don't actually think I think it's exactly where a conversation like this has to go. And we don't, we don't, we don't really want to steer clear of it just because it's complicated to grasp. I do think this is it. And I guess maybe a simple way that we might look at this, and Danny, tell me what you think about this. But I when I hear um Ray say that, to me, I it's basically this idea of the results, you know, determine the leadership. And of course, the clarity and the direction and the incentive structures and all that stuff is, you know, we are leading now. This conversation gets into this idea of results. And if you're gonna really get clear on results, you have to understand this idea of non-duality. You have to be able to have this idea of, and this is kind of what you were saying, this idea of let's not jump to these conclusions because that is going to make people be like, that didn't work. It's not gonna give people the time and the space to see the flowers grow or the thorns grow. And when you have duality, you actually cannot see what Ray was talking about, the kinds of people who will grow thorns versus the kind of people who will grow flowers. And a leader, in my mind, the best leaders need to understand this. I'll I'll I'll just say one more thing here as it pertains to running businesses and maybe running countries. In a business, in a country, right, you know, we have all kinds of different people, some that grow thorns, some that grow flowers. If you're a good uh leader and you have a non-dual perspective, you don't get into the right or wrong of the thorns versus the flowers. What you do is you go, how is this useful to the outcome of the business or the country? Because I have to deal with the people who deal with thorns. I have to deal with immigration, I have to deal with bad managers, I have to deal with these things. And my job is not to, you know, be like, we're gonna get rid of everybody. That would be a fortune for the business, a fortune for the country. It creates a ton of messes. It's more like, what is the solution that prioritizes now and then self and other? That's non-duality when you're including both. You said it best, I think, where it's like heads, tails, yes, but the coin comes first. Male, female, yes, but human comes first, right? And and to me, that's how you want to be thinking about it. And I do think a leader, a good leader, has this naturally as their compass.

SPEAKER_02: 46:49

It reminds me of the of another leadership quality I think is critical, Jay. That whether it's thorns or roses or tomatoes, the leader, a good leader, is has responsibility. It's still my garden. Right? So it's uh it's a coveyism. Just it may not be your fault, but it is your responsibility. So it, you know, you're speaking Ray too. Uh, you know, it depends on the type of followers you have. One of my greatest per I'm a I'm a humble brad, one of my greatest personal leadership accomplishes, accomplishments ever was there is this guy I managed, and he was like computer science 101. Like, as he was a computer. This guy was AI. Before AI, he was AI. He was he was so smart, he had no human emotions. Like that dude just said whatever, whatever was on his mind. And I remember I joined this company as like basically head of operations, and I came in, and they said the boss goes, Danny's gonna be replacing Tom. And that guy picks his head up from his computer and he goes, Who's Tom? And the boss's like, It's it's been your manager for the past 12 months. Sat right next to this guy, guy like computer science guy, ponytail, glasses, the whole look, too, right? And he goes, I have no idea who Tom is. And the manager's like, Wow. And I worked at this company for about like six to eight months, and we had a we had a lot of improvements and operations I was really proud of. But my biggest, my biggest point of pride was I was leaving and we're at this like holiday party, and I was like, it was my last week, I was wrapping it up in the end of the year, and the guy walks up to me in this very like robotic voice. He goes, I'm gonna miss you when you're gone. You were very useful to this company. And I just felt like, I felt so proud. We had nothing in common. I was not his cup of tea. Like, I, you know, I like to, I like to be a little humorous. I like to be, I don't take stuff that seriously. He was very serious, no humor. And for him to make that point of connection was a huge win for me. But I I bring that back to be like, that was my garden. It was like this, these type of guys I was managing, and I had to figure out a way to maybe shift my style a little bit or take responsibility of the whole garden, be like, I'm gonna turn these thorns, these thorns into at least a couple rosebuds. So I think you're speaking, and maybe you're not speaking to that, Jay. That's just what how I kind of interpreted what you're talking about or an element of what you were talking about.

SPEAKER_01: 49:02

That's exactly what I'm saying. And uh uh it's exactly what I'm saying, and I think it's exactly the point of if you you know, to me, that's why the opposite of this is division and dehumanization, right? You if you went in there and just said, I don't deal with people who are robotic. And because, you know, we all, me and Ray know Danny as a very social connection-oriented person. So he could easily go into that business and be like, this guy here is not a connection person. He is not, screw him. I don't want to deal with him, I don't want people like him on my team. What would happen is that area of the garden, to use that analogy, would dry up and die. And that then that would start to influence and impact the rest of the garden. We don't have leaders like this anymore, it seems like, right? And so I that's what I would say to that. And I know you have something, right, that you want to say.

SPEAKER_03: 49:59

I I mean, I think I kind of see it just a little bit differently as uh or I assess the situation a little bit differently than Danny did. I think you just went in, you reigned your rain, which is your job, and it fell where it fell. And you were surprised that it grew flowers in this particular situation. But, you know, we say in in Advaita Vedanta, we, you know, we utilize what's called karma yoga as um as our way of living that principle of reigning your reign. In essence, your responsibility is in action, not in result. Like you are um your job is to do your thing, to live your uh nature, to uh teach in the way that you want to teach, to um get your message out there and where it falls and what it grows is not your responsibility. Now, from uh the perspective of leadership, there may be a little bit of of difference there, only from the perspective of you've got to make sure, like just like I said earlier, if you if you you know, if you do your thing and you're not getting results, then the problem is, you know, the the problem can be that you're not reigning on the right people. And so this is a big challenge in the corporate world because oftentimes you're given a team and it's a very diverse team of different personalities and characteristics. And if you don't use those personalities and characteristics to do what they're best at uh individually, so this person's great at this, you've got to get them doing this, this person's great at that, you've got to get them doing that. Um, and if you don't, then what you're you know, how you're leading may end up making the wrong kinds of results or no results at all. So in your case, you did your job, you rained your reign, you you put your message out there, and it landed. It landed. And uh that's what I always say. You know, when when in karma yoga, we we say that uh you know, you don't you don't concern yourself with the results, you concern yourself with with uh doing your thing and taking your actions. And I think the only thing that I would say about about how this works with leadership is you have to make sure that you that that clarity is there and you're aligned with the people who you are leading as well. Because if you're not, if your purpose is not aligned with the purpose of the people that you're leading, then you're gonna run into major problems. And I think that's also a big challenge that a lot of leaders run into is that there is not that alignment from the beginning. And therefore, even a great um, even a great message or a great great leadership can't land in the way that it should.

SPEAKER_01: 52:46

Yeah, you I I kind of like this. It speaks to, it speaks to I I like it, and I have one problem with it, and I wonder, and I'll roll this out and see. To me, I love it from the standpoint of authenticity, right? Like I hear an authentic alignment reigning your reign, right? And I love that part 100%. And then I go, and I want to see what your answer to this is, Danny and Ray both, but then I go, okay, if I'm raining my rain and I'm taking responsibility, took this on as my job, leading this country, leading this corporation, leading this family. And I look around my garden as I've been raining my rain, and I go, some of the plants are growing, some are not. To me, also being authentic and being in responsibility, and being in responsibility means I need to step out of that andor change my reign. And that's the part I have the problem with, because what I heard is this idea that if we don't concern ourselves with results, then perhaps we get bad results, then we're not serving self and others simultaneously. So I love the authentic part. The part I don't necessarily love or I want to understand is when we're not getting the results that others expect, right? Then to me, part of being authentic is saying, well, this is how I do it. Let me step aside. And maybe that's where the problem leads with leaders, where they just go, No, I'm not gonna step aside. My way is the best way, while they continue not to get results. So I'm just curious what you both think about that. Because that's where I agree, and then where I have a problem.

SPEAKER_02: 54:25

You want to respond, Ray? I tend to I tend to agree with Jade on on this.

SPEAKER_03: 54:29

So it's not um so uh from the from that perspective, yes, you do not just rain your rein and then just get. I think what the difference is in um internal assess uh the way that people assess things. So in it's very common for leaders to do their thing, not get a result, and feel uh terrible about it and feel like they're going down the wrong path. And um what you've got to do from the perspective of karma yoga is to say, yes, I'm gonna rain my rain, and then I'm gonna distance myself. I'm gonna I'm gonna uh distance myself from the charge of the result. That doesn't mean you're not gonna learn and alter course. It means that you you operate from a mentally clear space at all times when you're living with this idea, okay, let me let me put take my action, see the result, alter course if necessary, without the negative charge associated with that, without feeling like I've I've uh failed, without feeling like I've um let people down. All you do is you say, okay, I took action, this was the result, maybe it wasn't what I wanted. Let's uh let's investigate and alter course. I think you guys would would agree with that. Let me ask you, Danny, when that situation happened where the person said, I didn't get a result, I didn't get the result, it didn't work. Um how did you feel in that moment? And uh what did you do?

SPEAKER_02: 56:07

So I think I felt different in the moment than I would have 10 years ago. I think 10 years ago I would have I would have resonated a little bit more with what you're talking about. I would have taken it on. It's bad, I'm bad, it's bad information, I suck at this teaching thing. So I think 10 years ago I would have had that charge. Uh this these these days I don't have that charge. Um, I'm I'm a lot more detached from that. One, because I'm a lot more confident in the material. So I think that helps. But and two, I always know there's other layers. So the way I handle it is like, okay, walk me through it. What happens? Let's let's go through. And typically what happens is they're making PA announcements. They go, I walk in, I made the announcement, I closed the door, nobody changed. You go, okay, now we have something to coach, because obviously there's a lot we can unpack there. There's a lot of different approaches we can do. You know, and another thing in that too is like pretend I'm the person. Tell me how you said it. And and uh, we talk about tonality, we talk, we talk about uh using things like you and labeling people, like you said earlier, Ray. You're incompetent, you're lazy, like that stuff is just not useful. And oftentimes in those conversations, that's what happens. So in this nowadays, I don't take it personally. I also know it's just one. So I teach many laws of communication. That's just one of them, but they all are, they all work synergistically. So I I think to your point, I would have taken it personally, I would have lost sleep, I would have quit. But nowadays I take a little bit different approach. But totally agree when you nuance that a little bit, Ray, because I do think the leader is responsible for the results. Now, again, that's the dis that's the distinction between fault and responsibility. But it's like a quarterback, and maybe it's his caveman stuff, but a quarterback at the end of the game losing the game, going, I like to see a quarterback going, either I could do this better, or you know, we'll we'll go back, we'll work on some of these elements rather than, well, if Bob caught the ball, it's not my fault. Bob dropped the ball. What do you want me to do? So I don't think that's effective leadership and responsibility to me looks like taking ownership of just the current state. Ownership, not necessarily all those things you're talking about, shame and judgment and all those things. I don't think they're useful.

SPEAKER_01: 58:10

Yeah. I love uh now that I understand this nuance, it's really nice because I do. That's how I took it too, Danny. I was like, oh, what Ray is really talking about is this ownership aspect. And it's actually a really nuanced idea about ownership because it's owning the reign, right? Owning, you know, the fact that this is what I do in the way that I can do it, also owning that I can, you know, adjust, but not getting so caught up in all of the extra. I love the term that he you that you used, Ray, charge, uh, this emotional charge and judgment about what happened. It's like, okay, I rained my reign, this thing happened, I'm not gonna get caught up in the emotional charge of that. I'm gonna adjust my reign. This thing happened, I'm not gonna get, you know, caught up in the emotional charge of that. I rained my reign. Okay, now I've adjusted and we're there. Right. The other thing I would say about this is I love this idea of the quarterback analogy. And I would just extend it further to be like, I think, you know, the best leader, like let's say you're the coach, what you would want is the quarterback to have that extreme ownership, but then every single player to have that extreme ownership to be like, did I reign my reign authentically to the best of my ability? Also, that's part one, self. And then other, did my reign influence and impact and inspire others in the way that I intended? Let me not get caught up in the emotional charge of that, but let me see to the degree that I that I can adjust my reign. Let me do that next game or next time. And if everyone operated that way, I think we would have a completely different country, business, world, family, right? And that does come back to maybe a final point we can cover, because I do think people would say, and I just want to throw this out, we can continue this conversation. But here's what I would say: a lot of people would say, they would say, if I say to you two, well, that does sound like what we just talked about, the idea that if I just take extreme responsibility for myself, take on the role of fault is irrelevant. I'm not gonna blame myself, I'm not gonna blame others, I'm just gonna rein my reign and adjust. Some people would say, I don't see how that being just centered within yourself, being the best leader I can be, the best human I can be, operating from the first principle in my mind of self and other simultaneously. A lot of people would say, that's not gonna get results. And I just want to see what you think about because right now a lot of people would say you can't just sit there and be, you know, the best human you can be and expect it to trickle out to the world. Uh, and I would say, I don't know that there's any other way to operate because you can't control. I love that Aldus Huxley quote, which is like there's only one segment of the universe you can change, and that is the one you occupy. So I'm just curious what you both think about that idea, because I know a lot of people will get prickly about it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:22

Oh, I can go first on this one, right? I I doubt I I totally to probably not to your surprise, I totally agree with you. I don't think you have any other choice. I I don't think we're putting enough credence in how much uh that does impact other people, though. I I one of the cool things about my work now is that I get to go in and see these small teams. And damn near always the team is a reflection of the leader. With enough time spent together, they take on the identity of the leader. If the leader's scattered and urgent, the team is scattered and urgent. If the leader is calm and centered, the team seems to be calm and centered. They almost adopt the leader's values, points of view, ways of operating in the world. So I think we have far more power as leaders than we think. It's like we've all felt this sensation. You're you're in a you're in a room and your group of people having a conversation, and someone sits down and they're they're like an Eeyore. They got heavy shoulders and they're they're always, I just thought this one, this one woman, and I was I was kind of having fun with her, but every sentence started with the word no. So she goes, no, and then she would say her point. And I that was Eastern European accent. She did have an Eastern European flavor to her. So she'd go, no, and then she would go, her point, right? So I start reflecting back her points just to see kind of if does she agree with her own points? And she would just always start with no. And then you look at her team, and that that team kind of has, they're very disagreeable, they're very, they all start with no. So I think yes, that's the only thing we can do as leaders, but I also think that actually, yeah, I think that shit works maybe more than other people. I think social contagion is so powerful and good leaders. Like, I as much as Ray's point people go to Grant Cardone because they are a certain way, I think Grant Cardone makes people a certain way too. So I think there's sort of a back and forth there. So that'll be my take on that. Yeah, that's the only way we could, that's the only thing we can do. And two, it probably works a lot more than maybe these prickly people you speak of, Jade, are are giving credit for.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:25

Yeah, you're you're you know, in leadership, your interstate is your culture, you know, for your team. And um so I would I would absolutely agree with that. Uh I'll also, you know, I'll point out, you know, leadership is a is a very um unique kind of stress in that it um you do kind of take on not just your own stress, but the stress of the people that you lead as well. And that's heavy, it's a heavy load to carry. And so um, so you know, going it kind of circles us back to you know the original point that Jade made, which is you really have to be able to take care of yourself and others. Um if you don't take care of yourself, and and leaders generally, oftentimes, will sacrifice their own state or their own well-being for the well-being of the people, at least good, I think a lot of good leaders will will um sacrifice their own well-being for the well-being of the people that they lead. Um and I think that takes that takes a toll. So it's very important that the leader cultivate clarity of mind, uh, cultivate calm, cultivate a sense of uh of um direction for the people that they lead, because if they don't, then as you said, they will take on those same same qualities. They'd have no choice, they'd have no choice to take on a lot of those same qualities because they are the lead being led by the leader. But I think that it's also important to note that that leaders, a leader's job is not to create certainty, a leader's job job is to create calm in in uh in the course of uncertainty. Because when you start doing high-level work, and oftentimes teams are generally teams aren't doing simple things, they're doing generally high-level work. Um uncertainty is the quality of that. And that that that kind of circles us back to this concept of you know, you can give the best, you can, you can be the best leader, you can have the best information, you can direct in the best way. And the outcome is not up to you. It's up to the corporate gods, you know, it's up to to uh, there are just too many factors to account for that it is impossible for a leader to know what is going to happen and how this thing is going to play out. And if you allow the charge of feeling like a failure or feeling like you're not achieving, or feeling like you're not a good leader, if you allow all that charge to dwindle you down because you're trying to be certain in an environment where certainty is an impossibility, then that is what ultimately takes you down in the end, a leader. You know, if you when you meet a leader who is wiped out, burned out, I guarantee you they're operating from the perspective that my job is to create certainty for my team. Guarantee it. And uh, and so um, you know, I I I I guess I leave with that, that a leader's job is not to create certainty, a leader's job is to create calm and clarity in the uncertainty that is guaranteed in the work that we do.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:46

Yeah, you know what it reminds me of as he says that too? It reminds me of like, you know, I don't know what you guys think, but it reminds me of a father or a mother, like someone who, like, you know, like it reminds me of this idea that it's like, you know, they create clarity and safety and everything else, but they cannot determine the outcome, right? You can't coddle the kid, you can't just not pay attention to the kid. So it is interesting uh that it to me it sounded a lot like a father figure or a mother figure or a parental figure. And it, you know, I guess I had never made that connection, too. That that's another perhaps good way to look at you know leadership. Like I would think that someone who's a very good father or mother, you know, may have some of the skills or be developing some of the skills of a good leader if they could carry that that up. But I'm gonna give you a final word, Danny, in in terms of uh, you know, what you think and anything that we left out or final thoughts.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:43

Yeah, I just I I I mean, you guys are so good. I want to steal this from my podcast, can I? Take you guys after. And then um, no, I don't I because I think we could go on forever. I have so many more questions and thoughts. I just I want to be respectful of you guys' time for sure. And and this is a new Sunday church, Ray. So every Sunday we'll see you here, man. Routine. So the weekly routine. Sunday sermon, yeah. But uh no, I don't have any final thoughts. I thought I thought Ray wrapped that up perfectly. I love the analogy of parenting as well, and I think that is my final thought is I think anybody can be a leader in any different type of context that is important to them. I think a parent is a leader. I sometimes like to be the leader of my siblings. I think the being a leader in these financial conversations with my wife, they sound they sound small and benign, and I guess maybe they are, but someone has to do it, and I think it's important. And, you know, my wife and I, we we always tell each other, like, no one has impacted me more than you. Like, that's leadership to me. So it doesn't have to be this huge thing. You don't have to be a manager of the team, you don't have to be the president of the United States. Like, we all have the capacity to do some of these things a little bit better in the small circles in which we operate. And I think that's what I would leave it with.

SPEAKER_03: 1:08:54

I think I think the the the um the bottom line is that all leadership is self-leadership, and then that self-leadership shines on the people around you. So um if you um, you know, uh it's about building that, you know, building that inner state that builds the the team naturally, that as I said, kind of flows out into the team and builds them into the people that that that you want them to be. Um, but uh yeah, all great points, guys. And uh um I enjoyed having this conversation.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:24

Yeah, say see you next, see you next Sunday.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:27

Yeah, see you next Sunday. See you next Sunday.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:31

Maybe that's we'll pick up on that. I'll try to get Ray and Danny back to do this, the two of my best friends. We always have amazing conversations. But that last point of becoming that person that Ray brings up, perhaps that is you know a next uh jumping off point. But uh check out uh Dr. Ray Heinish. He is here on Substack. Um check out Danny Coleman, also here on Substack, depending on where you're getting us live in multiple places and find him on LinkedIn and all the other places. But appreciate everyone hanging out with me. And I love you, boys. I'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:01

Yeah. Well, you guys.